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#308963 - 10/18/18 06:01 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14366
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I've never said there was a third team Gregor. In fact, I've started this thread to argue the idea that there is only one party with two factions.


There are two factions. You can label them with the same banana sticker banana sticker if you want, they're all lying sacks of sh*t, but there are two factions. When you walk into the House of Representatives or the Senate and walk down the center aisle on your right will be the Republicans. On your left will be the Democrats.
Coincidence? Maybe.

Quote:
The left–right political spectrum is a system of classifying political positions, ideologies and parties, from equality on the left to social hierarchy on the right. Left-wing politics and right-wing politics are often presented as opposed, although a particular individual or group may take a left-wing stance on one matter and a right-wing stance on another; and some stances may overlap and be considered either left- or right-wing depending on the ideology. In France, where the terms originated, the Left has been called "the party of movement" and the Right "the party of order". The intermediate stance is called centrism and a person with such a position is a moderate or centrist.


I see your point that we have two "Parties of Order", but the Democratic Party is still the "Party of Movement" towards equality. I'm just thinking that the farther left on the spectrum you are then the faster you want to movement to be.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#308966 - 10/18/18 06:22 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1076
I agree Gregor. There are two factions of the right. One faction serves the professional, credentialed class. The other serves the high net worth income individuals, religious zealots and racists.

I would disagree with your statement that the Democratic party is still the party of movement towards equality, except with sexual orientation issues. Economic inequality, the promotion of meritocracy, and the abandonment of Labor rights are all Hallmarks of the center right political orientation of the democratic party.

There is no left wing political party being seated anywhere in congress with the exception of Sanders chair in the Senate.


Edited by chunkstyle (10/18/18 06:23 PM)

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#308967 - 10/18/18 06:29 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1076
I'm watching the Ojeeda run in the reddest of the red district in the country with fascination since they tried to take him out with brass knuckles, NWP.

The DSA member running against a progressive is interesting but this scrap going on in Appalacian coal country is worth watching too:
Ojeeda takin a run at it...


Edited by chunkstyle (10/18/18 06:32 PM)

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#308971 - 10/19/18 03:18 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14366
Loc: Florida
Quote:
There is no left wing political party being seated anywhere in congress with the exception of Sanders chair in the Senate.

And there isn't going to be. But the Democrats can be nudged left sometimes.

Those are the parameters we have to work within.

It's never been easy for the left. Just ask Fidel or Che.
That's not how it was supposed to turn out.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309140 - 10/31/18 03:12 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1076
I had to think awhile before responding to your statement Gregor.
On the surface it sounds simple enough.
It very clearly reflects the attitude of the establishment right wing Democratic Party. Narrowing the scope and range of possibilities for politics to provide real change to the sharing of resources and reducing the suffering of ordinary Americans all the while enriching its donor class. It reminds me of Thatcher's 'there is no alternative' speech for pushing neoliberal doctrination on her citizens. A foreclosure of possibility.
I don't know where the idea comes from but it is shared by a good deal of people. In an odd way it seems to be a congenital blind spot for neoliberalism. It was beaten by it's very opposite political challenge from the ultra right. They have embarked on the decades long political project of pushing neoliberalism forward to its next step: Facism.
That tantilizing idea has been finally realized with the unforeseen insurgent Trump. He managed to capture the darker imagination of what's possible by using a mixture of stolen left ideas, xenophobia and racism.
His polar opposite, Corbyn, ignited the imagination of what's possible and won a tremendous victory.
On either side of this presupposed, narrowed range of imagination are victories of the exact opposite of what your sentiment supposes. A perpetual running game when it's apparent that the field is wide open for a pass.
I understand the right wing grift of Neoliberals that are in the game. It's where the money is and it's thier job to con the left into voting for them.
It's the voters who keep insisting on the running game as the only one that we can and should expect that has baffled me.
Your wrong about a left wing not getting seated. It will be small but it's a start. May be to late but after massacre at the Tree of Life synagogue, [censored] the running game. Start throwing some long bombs down the field.
The right is very much getting what it wants. Neoliberalism is a con.







Edited by chunkstyle (10/31/18 03:21 AM)

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#309142 - 10/31/18 11:08 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1076
A good example of the co-option of the left by the right wingers going on in California. It's the same con that's worked from Clinton to Obama.
Find some one with some progressive street cred from once upon a time in their early life, show them the money and possibility of generational wealth, once loyalty is confirmed, send them out and run them against a true progressive left candidate.
Everyone's complaining about the fraud and grift of trump. Crickets to the charade being repeated in the right wing Democratic Party.
I'll go on the record that the high salaried young tech YIMBY workers that the right wing candidate in this race is courting will go libertarian, once they've made their nut, and flatter themselves with a phony self determination success story and finally go full blown Nazi in later mid-life. All their horrible ideas and self regard will be represented by a democrat who's task it will be to deliver the bacon to them and theirs while managing lowered expectations for the rest.
I realize though that we may not have a chance to realize that outcome.

Progressive vs right wing conservative


Edited by chunkstyle (10/31/18 11:36 AM)

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#309158 - 11/01/18 09:32 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14366
Loc: Florida
So what are you trying to tell me? That the left actually has a chance
because a few will be elected this year? Keep an eye on them and you'll see just how quickly they are forced towards the middle. They'll be collared, leashed, and trained to stay in their place. Maybe they'll team up with Bernie to write bills that will be ignored.

Fidel went full authoritarian, Che was killed for his trouble.

I used to be an adventurer like you, but then I took an arrow in the knee.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309159 - 11/02/18 02:42 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1076
Wether the freshman left sniffs the air and wanders off to where the money is remains to be seen. I'm sure some will. The rest of the Democratic Party has done that so, yeah, it's probable a few will.
The point was, since Bill Clinton, the right wing of the Democratic Party has gone for the money. In return they have used the language of the left but have carried out policies and objectives of the right. That's not hyperbole, simply historical record.
Supporting the very institution that has brought about the conditions of facism is some kind of something. I'm not sure what. Especially when there's an alternative.
My guess is it will have to get much worse and far more dangerous before a real left populist movement can get a shot. Were going to relearn some very hard stuff with nukes and looming environmental catastrophe thrown in for fun.

I guess until then, there is not alternative.

I've beat this to death and will shut up now.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/02/18 02:49 AM)

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#309166 - 11/02/18 08:14 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14366
Loc: Florida
Quote:
My guess is it will have to get much worse and far more dangerous before a real left populist movement can get a shot.


YES! The scales have finally fallen from your eyes! It took The Great Depression to create the circumstances that made FDR's New Deal possible. Until this Trumpian Dystopia unravels all we can hope for is to nudge the Democratic Party to the left.

I don't say this because I'm a Centrist or that I support centrist views. I say it because it's a goddam fact whether you and I like it or not. New job and wage reports are out...More new jobs than predicted, wages have gone up. Trumpism appears to be working.

Like everything else Trumpian it's a lie and it's temporary. But it's not an environment conducive to important leftward change. We continue to give the Republicans all the rope they need to hang themselves(they will) and we continue to nudge the Democrats leftward in tiny increments.

The proles might have the numbers but the bourgeoisie have the power. We can send in spies and agents to work from within but we simply don't have the power or the public motivation to wrest the wheel from the madmen steering us towards disaster. And yes, the madmen are wearing both red and blue caps...but the guys in blue are at least sympathetic to the cause.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309169 - 11/02/18 11:41 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1076
No stars falling here.
If you recall, I never supported the neoliberal center right candidate for the democratic presidential nomination. If I want progressive left wing policies I vote for them.

As far as Sanders is concerned, for someone so ignored he seems to have raised a lot of issues being campaigned on by progressive candidates in the mid terms.

He does his dance in roll call amendments and thru reconciliation rules.



Edited by chunkstyle (11/02/18 11:43 PM)

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