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#309352 - 11/12/18 01:44 PM Is it too soon to be talking 2020?
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Cuz Ojeda is...

Although I'm a bit concerned with having a militarization of the party happening I think he will compliment Sanders authentic populist message and force the narrow band of accepted conversation open. To have alternatives to the "third way" thinking that reigns over the party.
We saw how the party was opposed to a diversity of thought in the 2016 election, preferring instead to hold a coronation of the 'annointed one'. I truly hope that the primary is a deluge of candidates making the management of and control over the primary much more difficult for the mandarins.

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#309353 - 11/12/18 03:48 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 370
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Ok a possible candidate.

But, I have a couple of questions. If he retired with 24 years, why was he only a Major?

Well, the above questioned answered; He was prior enlisted before entering OCS.

Why do some of his words sound frighteningly similar to a recent Presidential candidate?

Does he have a prosthetic leg?

Not looking for answers from anybody here. The questions will be answered in time: before I make my decision as to who to support for the primaries and the race.


Edited by Ujest Shurly (11/12/18 07:31 PM)
_________________________
Vote 2020.

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#309356 - 11/12/18 06:16 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Both Sanders, Trump and now Ojeda are speaking to the reality that most Americans are experiencing whereas the centrist Democratic right wing refuses to acknowledge, must less deal with, that reality. : 'America is already great!'.

I guess we have to decide which is being a phoney populist and whose being sincere. As always, who's benefiting.

Leg?
Military rank?


Edited by chunkstyle (11/12/18 06:17 PM)

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#309357 - 11/12/18 06:29 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
Who? I've never heard of him.

Name recognition isn't everything but it's something. Beto O'Rourke became a household name during the midterms. Ojeda didn't exactly set the world on fire with his no nonsense militarized liberal message.

Didn't we have a ex military democrat running in 2016? One with much better name recognition nationwide? I can't recall his name right now because guys like him are so easily forgotten.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309358 - 11/12/18 07:34 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: Greger
Who? I've never heard of him.

Name recognition isn't everything but it's something. Beto O'Rourke became a household name during the midterms. Ojeda didn't exactly set the world on fire with his no nonsense militarized liberal message.

Didn't we have a ex military democrat running in 2016? One with much better name recognition nationwide? I can't recall his name right now because guys like him are so easily forgotten.


Your referring to that tall glass of room temperature centrist water that was reporting for duty?
Yeah I forgot what he was for, too.
All I can remember is he fell off a boat in a place called Veetnam.

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#309359 - 11/12/18 09:41 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
"Kerry headed into that summer running an ad that highlighted his military service, showed him in fatigues, or posing with his arm around John McCain. The ad boasted about how he’d broken with his party to support a balanced budget. He was no down-the-line Democrat, not this guy. He was almost Republican!

Once Kerry became the nominee, though, Republicans easily blew up Kerry’s supposed strength with the lurid Swift Boat campaign — it’s amazing how that stuff works with weak candidates, but sleaze campaigns like the Bill Ayers or Jeremiah Wright business bounce off the likes of Barack Obama."


Well this is timely


Edited by chunkstyle (11/12/18 09:41 PM)

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#309361 - 11/12/18 11:00 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
Actually I was talking about Jim Webb.

Ojeda voted for Trump. Says he's never voted for a Democrat for president. He's a military minded authoritarian with a new leftish outlook. Fidel Castro was like that once.

Nope. This dog aint gonna fly.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309363 - 11/13/18 01:37 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
I think the democratic leadership has done a wonderful job of blurring the lines between republicans and democrats in their traditional roles. They've had no problems running garbage barge candidates, conviently reflagged from republican to democrat as long as they had the money to buy in to the club. Many a good progressive got primaried by the DNC in this way.
Likewise they've also had a love affair with veterans for as long as what? Carter maybe.
Ojeda may not make it but what he does understand is the power of campaigning. Ditto with Sanders. Hence the insurgency of bold progressive issues that candidates felt empowered to run on in this mid-term.
Hopefully Ojeda will push the door open even more. I'll take bold inclusive populism over politely served neoliberal fascism any day.

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#309364 - 11/13/18 02:52 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
So you'll choose the Trump voter over Beto?

Leopards seldom change their spots. Ojeda is a conservative. Better I guess than any Democrat when you hate Democrats.

Come to think of it...I've never heard you say a single thing bad about Republicans...You always deflect everything to make Democrats seem worse...

are you a troll of some sort?
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309365 - 11/13/18 03:12 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: Greger
So you'll choose the Trump voter over Beto?

Leopards seldom change their spots. Ojeda is a conservative. Better I guess than any Democrat when you hate Democrats.

Come to think of it...I've never heard you say a single thing bad about Republicans...You always deflect everything to make Democrats seem worse...

are you a troll of some sort?



I expect republicans to act as republicans. Their masked contempt for average Americans has always been about a millimeter below their surface congeniality.
But it's the Democratic Party that gets me riled. It's the phoney 'I feel your pain' disengeniousness and betrayel and undermining of progressives, labor, working poor, children, etc...
If it's true that leopards don't change their spots with regard to Ojeda, would it not also be true of a Goldwater Girl?
Rumor has it she's running. Running on her resume and hubris that her fans will be sure to overlook, ignore or be satisfied with. On the other hand, like Lieberman had, there's a D next to her name so that's gotta count for something right?

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#309366 - 11/13/18 03:55 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
She's not running. But if she did she'd stand a far better chance of winning than this jingoistic hillbilly.
And she'd make a far better president.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309368 - 11/13/18 11:07 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Nice to know she's not a war like patriot. I'm sure folks in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria would have appreciated knowing that during her time as a Senator of NY or Secretary of State.

Let's hope your right Gregor. Her followers are about as fanatical as any MAGA heads. Still, that publishing of her book 'How everyone else screwed up' or whatever it was called, looked like a typical publishing prelude for a politicians intent to run. Have to wait and see.

You didn't answer the question of Leopard spots.

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#309371 - 11/13/18 05:25 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
Yes, let's see...leopard's spots.

Quote:
I feel like my political beliefs are rooted in the conservatism that I was raised with. I don't recognize this new brand of Republicanism that's afoot now, which I consider to be very reactionary, not conservative in many respects. I'm very proud that I was a Goldwater Girl. And then my political beliefs changed over time.
HRC 1996

In our own way, we are all conservative to some degree. Even yourself Monsieur Firebrand.
Some time back I was telling you about the advantages of sous vide cooking, you scoffed at it and insisted the only way to cook was with a crock pot. Do you even Instapot, dude?

I don't hold that one vote against her(this woman should be our president!)

I believed they had nuclear weapons or were building them,
I believed that there was a peaceful solution, didn't you?

So did she.

Left to his own devices, Bush would not have gone to war. I'm convinced that Vice President Richard Cheney saw it as a chance to make $Billions$ and pushed Bush into war.

You told me once, long ago, that Madame Clinton was a pretty good senator for your state. You've changed your spots a bit since then.

But this yahoo from West Virginia is who he is and this is all a ploy to get himself a lobbying or media position. Otherwise he's back on the streets with a choice of digging coal, selling dope, or getting a job in government. He's f*cking pro-coal, Chunks! What else do you need to know?
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309377 - 11/13/18 09:39 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
I can joke about peculiarities of cooking styles Gregor. I also understand the idea of not throwing the baby out with the bath water, which is all I see conservative being. That might be oversimplifying it a bit.

I did not believe the nuclear weapons program then. I believe it was mostly Saudi's that flew the planes into the T. Towers and I was disgusted with that criminal act being used as a justification for imperial ambitions. Senator Clinton felt another way about it.

She saved a VA from getting shut down in our area. It was an anchor to the local employment in much the same way as bases and prisons are to local economies in upstate NY. It serves a large veterans community that would have to have traveled much further to get medical care. I give her credit for that.

Ojeda might be all you say he is and maybe he is not. He's been trained to think in a military fashion and that concerns me. On the other hand, he is speaking directly to people's real life situations without a bunch of word craft which sounds like something but doesn't commit to anything. I'm amused that you would condemn his campaign from the outset before he's done anything to confirm your suspicions but defend the Clintons that have proven, to many progressives, our worst fears about them. I could go into the horrendous list but she has an almost cult like status to her fans. Madness that way lies.







Edited by chunkstyle (11/13/18 09:41 PM)

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#309378 - 11/13/18 09:41 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
She would have been a terrible president.

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#309379 - 11/13/18 10:22 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Whoops! Your right Gregor. My fault, I got confused about Hillary's run

Slight discrepancy


Edited by chunkstyle (11/13/18 10:23 PM)

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#309380 - 11/13/18 11:22 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
She would have been a terrible president.


She would have been 100 times better than what we have now. Just think of all the insane things Trump has done, and I doubt she would have done any of them. We would have fixed the ACA/Medicaid gap, and might even have government options on their way to becoming single-payer.

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#309384 - 11/14/18 03:09 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Or just do single payer like progressives have demanded for years now.

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#309385 - 11/14/18 03:10 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
She was a war hawk neoliberal.
It's ironic that the ultra right has to create Clinton murder fantasies for their ultra right followers as her involvement in the death and destruction of brown skin people aren't offensive to them.
On the other hand, her fans are offended by the evil conspiracies that have been leveled at her but never confront her murderous foriegn policy decision. Apparently killing brown skin people is not that offensive for them either.
Interesting times.
Latest whispers are that she's preparing a full on progressive presidential agenda to run on in 2020. And why not if the rumors are true? She saw it work for Obama and blocked her run. She almost suffered the same feat by a genuine progressive socialist.
Third times a charm? Well see...


Edited by chunkstyle (11/14/18 03:22 AM)

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#309386 - 11/14/18 04:04 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
William Jennings Bryan ran 4 times. A Democrat but stood for everything Republicans consider holy these days. That was back when Republicans were the progressive party. Nothing ever really changes.

Really. Nothing.

I aint crazy about Biden running either. I love Uncle Joe as much as the next man but it's time for him(and Clinton and Bernie) to bow out and let the young guns fight it out.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309387 - 11/14/18 04:48 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3833
Loc: Eugene, OR
So--thinking back I was about eight years old. My father was a pragmatist, my mother an artistic type dreamer, and a very good musician I might add. It was Christmas. And I wanted a spaceship. That actually worked! That I could really fly and “go to the moon”.

So looking back, I suppose they both conspired to buy me that cardboard “spaceship” that would take me to the stars. On Christmas I was presented with it. Aside from being spurned during the first time I was attempting to be laid it was my worst disappointment of all time.

What? A phuggin' cardboard box that was supposed to take me into the glorious future and fly me to places unknown that I absolutely wanted to see? And that I absolutely demanded to see! Yet that goddam cardboard box never even had an engine. Or any other sort of power levitation.

Life is full of disappointments Chunky. I suppose sometime your perfect world where everything works in harmony will appear.....and the rest of the fools will fall in line

But I am not holding my breath.
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#309390 - 11/14/18 04:19 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
I think you took a long way around the block to let me know that life isn't perfect Ken.
Uhhh yeah.
I've lived long enough to see that in action and perfection is not what I'm talking about.
I have talked about neoliberal fascism, Clintonian triangulation, environmental destruction, and the boomers congenital nihilism that must be overcome and quickly.

Perfection? I don't believe I've asked for that.

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#309430 - 11/18/18 07:21 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13410
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
I think you took a long way around the block to let me know that life isn't perfect Ken.
Uhhh yeah.
I've lived long enough to see that in action and perfection is not what I'm talking about.
I have talked about neoliberal fascism, Clintonian triangulation, environmental destruction, and the boomers congenital nihilism that must be overcome and quickly.

Perfection? I don't believe I've asked for that.


But you've also consistently promoted voting third party when the so called "purity" of the Democratic Party does not meet standards.

Now mind you, I am not labeling you a "purity pony", but I suspect you might be able to see quite a few of them in the pasture you're standing in.
In the end, simple mathematics won't be kind. Someday that same math might be, and I would want to look forward to that day by supporting whatever it is that can tip the scales away from the two main parties and toward a third party.

Most of that, however, is generational work. It is tedious, expensive and slow moving. You're talking about changing a couple of centuries of ideas that people take for granted. You're talking about changing the thinking of millions of people all at the same time.

In the end, what Republicans do is capitalize on this and use it to their advantage. This time, that gambit didn't work as well as they hoped. This time, a lot of very liberal committed soldiers found their way into Democratic Party seats.

You may want to tip your hat grudgingly to acknowledge that.
But I could be wrong wink

PS: Ken, the first time I got laid, I was hoping for someone who resembled a Playboy centerfold, voluptuous, worldly wise and madly in lust with me.
What I wound up with was a skinny blonde teenybopper with 70's aviator glasses who was as inexperienced as I was, and who had a mom who showed up unexpectedly when she should have been at work. attn

Still, I persisted...bite the pillow, I was going in dry, and I'm sure she spent that one minute or less staring at the cottage cheese ceiling wondering if this was really what it was all about.





_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309432 - 11/18/18 04:47 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Go ahead and vote for the banana sticker of your preference Jeff. If I have a lousy candidate I'll vote green or leave it blank. That's also voting. That's not purity, that's you hectoring people. I'm not voting against my interests any longer.

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#309440 - 11/18/18 08:19 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Two points you brought up Jeff that i thought are worth responding too.

"Most of that, however, is generational work. It is tedious, expensive and slow moving. You're talking about changing a couple of centuries of ideas that people take for granted. You're talking about changing the thinking of millions of people all at the same time."

Not so. It was the boomers who, as a generation, reversed gears and elected Reagan and all that it represented. Reagan was a turning point, in my book, that ushered in a trove of right wing grift and faux freedom language. Even his own age demographic didn't support him. So how does your generational theory square a rejection of Keynesian economic theory and labor movement struggle being rejected in one generations time? Why is it incrementalism for liberal progressives and death of a thousand cut but 'revolution' for conservatives Jeff?....

"In the end, what Republicans do is capitalize on this and use it to their advantage. This time, that gambit didn't work as well as they hoped. This time, a lot of very liberal committed soldiers found their way into Democratic Party seats.

You may want to tip your hat grudgingly to acknowledge that.
But I could be wrong wink"

An embryonic number of committed progressives were elected to congress Jeff but it was not due to the institutional structure of the Democratic party. Instead it was mainly do to the long hard work of street level organizing, canvassing and get out the vote efforts on behalf of committed volunteers backed by separate funding sources than the customary traditional 'dialing for dollars' DNC. One could also request you tip YOUR hat to these progressive grass root efforts that got this small group of progressives elected to congress as well as many more down ballot victories. Victories that were won in regions that the upper class DNC had walked away from and written off as hopeless.
That should be telling you something in and of itself about the DNC makeup and direction. Don't equate progressive victories to the upper corporate party leadership.






Edited by chunkstyle (11/18/18 08:20 PM)

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#309441 - 11/18/18 10:49 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida

I'm satisfied with my voting record. But I'm not satisfied with the direction politics has trended these last few decades. We've landed ourselves into quite the pickle. Remains to be seen how, or whether, we will get out of it.

Taken individually, our votes mean nothing. Vote how you will or don't vote at all, it makes no difference. We're really just observers anyway.

2020 will be an interesting year. I think it will trend blue again. The senate map isn't as easy for Republicans next time around and I feel like Trump can be defeated by a populist candidate like Beto O'Rourke or even Bernie, should he decide to run again.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309442 - 11/18/18 11:37 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13410
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Two points you brought up Jeff that i thought are worth responding too.

"Most of that, however, is generational work. It is tedious, expensive and slow moving. You're talking about changing a couple of centuries of ideas that people take for granted. You're talking about changing the thinking of millions of people all at the same time."

Not so. It was the boomers who, as a generation, reversed gears and elected Reagan and all that it represented. Reagan was a turning point, in my book, that ushered in a trove of right wing grift and faux freedom language. Even his own age demographic didn't support him. So how does your generational theory square a rejection of Keynesian economic theory and labor movement struggle being rejected in one generations time? Why is it incrementalism for liberal progressives and death of a thousand cut but 'revolution' for conservatives Jeff?....

"In the end, what Republicans do is capitalize on this and use it to their advantage. This time, that gambit didn't work as well as they hoped. This time, a lot of very liberal committed soldiers found their way into Democratic Party seats.

You may want to tip your hat grudgingly to acknowledge that.
But I could be wrong wink"

An embryonic number of committed progressives were elected to congress Jeff but it was not due to the institutional structure of the Democratic party. Instead it was mainly do to the long hard work of street level organizing, canvassing and get out the vote efforts on behalf of committed volunteers backed by separate funding sources than the customary traditional 'dialing for dollars' DNC. One could also request you tip YOUR hat to these progressive grass root efforts that got this small group of progressives elected to congress as well as many more down ballot victories. Victories that were won in regions that the upper class DNC had walked away from and written off as hopeless.
That should be telling you something in and of itself about the DNC makeup and direction. Don't equate progressive victories to the upper corporate party leadership.






I was referring to third party votes, and fantasies about third parties overturning the two main parties in a lightning stroke.

You're referring to what is essentially party reboots, which I almost ALWAYS argue in favor of. Don't like the way the Democratic Party shapes policy? Take it over and remake it. It's been done several times in my own lifetime. I watched it happen and so did you.
Same with the GOP.

Party reboots and retools work, and as you pointed out, they can work in a terrifically rapid time interval.

_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309443 - 11/19/18 03:14 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Can't argue with you there Jeff. Retool, takeover, insurgency, you name it but it needs to be done.
The power of the primaries

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#309444 - 11/19/18 04:39 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13410
Loc: Whittier, California
We're doing it.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309460 - 11/19/18 09:10 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
We're working on it anyway.

I don't think this administration is going to become more popular over the next two years and Trump likely won't be re-elected. Policy designed for no other reason than to own the libs isn't gonna fly in the long game. Even Our Corporate Overlords know that.

Raking the forests will not stop fires and owning the libs will not bring growth and prosperity.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309464 - 11/19/18 10:00 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3833
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
Raking the forests


Yet that will be the perfect job for ol Donny when he finally and mercifully vacates the office he has so sullied. That should keep him busy for a while since he would have all the forests from California way up to Washington then over to Montana and Idaho to keep “clean"....

He will be in good shape though.
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#309465 - 11/19/18 10:10 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Jeff,
If Sanders is simply new deal democrat and all that that implies, what then would the current democrats in charge be? Just curious. I would like to get to the nub of that one.

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#309466 - 11/19/18 11:08 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
I think Jeffrey is trying once again to hide the S word from the moderates. New Deal Democrats were Social Democrats. Socialism and even communism were pretty popular notions back then.
Capitalists had, after all, just caused a worldwide depression that led to WW2. Luckily the cold war came along and their propaganda machine was able to turn it all around and make it the fault of (you guessed it) Democrats, who are always communist sympathizers.
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#309470 - 11/19/18 11:47 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


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Originally Posted By: Greger
I think Jeffrey is trying once again to hide the S word from the moderates. New Deal Democrats were Social Democrats. Socialism and even communism were pretty popular notions back then.
Capitalists had, after all, just caused a worldwide depression that led to WW2. Luckily the cold war came along and their propaganda machine was able to turn it all around and make it the fault of (you guessed it) Democrats, who are always communist sympathizers.


Yes yes, hiding the dreaded and radioactive "S word" from the moderates, you nailed it.
And rightly so. Why not confuse the moderates and confound the RWNJ's?
I think it's an excellent tactic. Do you not understand the value that Frank Luntz and Lee Atwater brought to the Right over these last few decades?
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309473 - 11/20/18 12:07 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
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I am eagerly supporting the New Green Deal Democrats!
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#309478 - 11/20/18 08:02 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

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Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez seems to be emerging as their future leader. Or at least she's taking the heat from the right for the rest of them. She's young, she's smart, and I think she's having a good time.
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#309480 - 11/20/18 08:20 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
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Originally Posted By: Greger
Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez seems to be emerging as their future leader. Or at least she's taking the heat from the right for the rest of them. She's young, she's smart, and I think she's having a good time.


She's not all that smart, not just yet.
She's rolled out a few whoppers that revealed her lack of education on some core matters. I think she is indeed smart enough to get caught up but it better be quick.

But then again, in the last 10 years or so I have yet to find a single Trump or Tea Party Republican who knows anything about economics. Whether it's communism, capitalism, socialism, it doesn't matter because they NEVER get it right.
Instead they spew nonsense and namecall.
But they don't have the first clue about the true meaning of any economic system. They have alternative facts and weapons grade revisionism.

Ocasio-Cortez's lack of education can be fixed.
I'm doubtful one can correct demagogue true believers on today's Right.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309484 - 11/20/18 09:04 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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Bernie/Ocasio 2020!....

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#309489 - 11/21/18 03:02 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

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Hey, I like her, great kid, great future, but not exactly VP material. She's 29 and inexperienced. Let's let her get her feet wet before we push her into the deep end.

And Bernie...I have the same doubts now about his executive abilities as I've always had and he's getting closer and closer to his expiration date.

She is too young, he is to old...Beto is just right!

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#309492 - 11/21/18 03:37 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Still have to be 35 to be President. Goes for VP, too. O'Rourke got 4 million votes, in Texas. Ocasio-Cortez got 100,000 in New York.

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#309493 - 11/21/18 04:40 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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Well that settles that then.
Yeah, I recall the press being flat footed in not even know who Cortez was when she unseated Crowley.
At the same time they seemed to be creating this battle for the soul of America narrative with Beto.
One wonders what else the press is missing in the crafting of narratives for public entertainment.

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#309496 - 11/21/18 05:59 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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Speaking of the obtuseness of the media to catch whats going on out there, I try and follow those that have been calling it with more accuracy and bother to get out of the press briefing rooms and get in the street. We had a long history of those types of reporters and still have a remnant of that school. What I think seperates them from the rest of the infotainment types is their refusal to underestimate Trump and his canniness in reporting on him. Ralph Nader and Chris Hedges have been deadly serious reporting on Trumps political abilities.
Matt Taibbi has a timely article on the 2020 race just out today:
Trumps 2020 chances

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#309499 - 11/21/18 07:54 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
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Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Speaking of the obtuseness of the media to catch whats going on out there, I try and follow those that have been calling it with more accuracy and bother to get out of the press briefing rooms and get in the street. We had a long history of those types of reporters and still have a remnant of that school. What I think seperates them from the rest of the infotainment types is their refusal to underestimate Trump and his canniness in reporting on him. Ralph Nader and Chris Hedges have been deadly serious reporting on Trumps political abilities.
Matt Taibbi has a timely article on the 2020 race just out today:
Trumps 2020 chances



The mainstream press hasn't been obtuse. The execs at the top liked the money coming in from the ratings. That plays a much larger role in determining what gets reported and what doesn't.
That's the folly of "cable news".

Since Hedges, Nader and Taibbi aren't tied to that mast, they don't have to point their sails in that direction.

Innumerable sums have been spent in educating and conditioning the American public to accept profit-driven political entertainment as "news" in the last thirty years. If you were to turn on any cable news channel and you could see a cash register total spinning while they are on the air, you'd see it spinning faster when Trump is on TV.

An awareness of that would probably undo a certain significant amount of that conditioning, I daresay.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309500 - 11/21/18 08:57 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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I'm not disagreeing with what your saying about the profit driven market world that passes for news journalism Jeff.
What I was driving at is the ability of the media and their target markets to get high on their own supply.
The first, which is the basis of Taibbi's article, was the complete suprise of the prevailing narrative that Trump was a buffoon and that Clinton had the ultimate campaign machine that would, in the end, prevail.
The second was the Cortez primary victory that, much like Trumps, they didn't see coming and didn't understand what happenned.
Beto reminds me of that same obtuseness, willingly or not,for the realities on the ground. I see the same story telling going on with Beto's narrative. What really separates him from the centrist positioning that so many Americans are fed up with?

My guess is they will craft him as having some kind of Kennedyesque mystique since politics has now become entertainment branding for them to shape. Much like the 'Man from Hope' or 'Morning in America' commercializing. So long as he doesn't challenge the existing power structures and it's pipeline.

I don't think that head fake will cut it anymore. Time will tell.

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#309501 - 11/21/18 10:52 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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#309505 - 11/22/18 01:28 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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Well, the neoliberal concensus is starting to weigh in and it looks like it's leaning Beto:
It's all bout the feelings y'all

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#309507 - 11/22/18 02:16 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I think Beto O'Rourke was a terrific Senate candidate and is a very talented, inspiring politician. I don't think he's ready to be President, but, then, I wasn't sure Obama was, either. Turns out I was wrong then, and could be wrong now.

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#309508 - 11/22/18 03:14 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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Ironically NWP, I thought Obama was ready when he ran based on what he was running on and, I'll admit it, I didn't mind that he had minority status either.
Unfortunately, I was wrong in the sense that he wasn't what he projected but was very good at projecting.
His biggest failure was the housing crises. Instead of taking lessons from the past and using the crises to change the neoliberal trajectory, he showed many he was of that cut of cloth. By all measures he did very little for working class Americans. He talked the talk but the walk? Not so much... No hope, no change.
That would be my biggest fear with Beto. Is he an empty suit that conservatives will play off of as they did Obama?

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#309516 - 11/22/18 10:57 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

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Quote:
That would be my biggest fear with Beto. Is he an empty suit


Well yeah there's that...he's definitely a tabula rasa. But the other candidates don't look any more promising to me so I'll ride this horse until I see a better one. He's got charisma and is a natural leader. He's got a pretty face and the press loves him, donors love him too. As president he would do pretty much what any Democrat will do. He'll sign the bills I want him to sign, choose cabinet members for their abilities, appoint judges who think like I think, and try to get along with our allies and stand up to our adversaries.

Obama started out okay but he lost the senate in his first midterm election so whatever agenda he might have had went straight out the window after that. He could have been a truly great president if Republicans were interested in having a truly great president.
There was never a jobs bill brought to the floor. There was never an immigration bill, nor an infrastructure bill. Republicans were absolute assh*les the entire eight years. Then they elected the assh*le in chief and continue to do nothing for working Americans.
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#309522 - 11/24/18 12:25 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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We'll have to disagree about Obama's start Gregor. I think he stumbled out of the gate with his refusal to go Keynesian and instead stuck with neoliberal policies. He stocked his administration with Goldman and Harvard. The results were catastrophic for the middle class.
I like Ojeda still. He's got some indignation going that's refreshing to hear and has an american populist tone. Some of that 'Raise less corn and more Hell' vibe.
Sounds like a fighter...

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#309532 - 11/24/18 08:12 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

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I can agree to disagree. Say what you will about Goldman and Harvard, their alumni have a pretty good idea how things work in the rarefied stratosphere of macroeconomics.
Remember the "shovel ready" infrastructure plans that Obama spoke of early on? He wanted to "go Keynesian" as you say, but the opposition pushed for austerity when government should have been bailing out homeowners trapped by predatory lenders and putting people to work. I think that stuff got pushed aside or bartered away as congress worked on the Affordable Care Act.
Then we lost the House and Republicans gained 6 Senate seats in 2010 and it was all over for Obama.

Ojeda's going nowhere. You can take that to the bank.
Beto might be. It just is what it is. The voters are going to swing towards whichever candidate strikes their fancy when the primaries start. All we can do is speculate which one it will be at this point.
Beto gained national attention in his Texas race against Cruz. Ojeda not so much, though he did splash into the headlines a few times.

Whoever says what most of the voters want to hear will get the nom.
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#309538 - 11/24/18 11:10 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greger
I can agree to disagree. Say what you will about Goldman and Harvard, their alumni have a pretty good idea how things work in the rarefied stratosphere of macroeconomics.


Shoot, that aint hard to understand Gregor. High finance is simply a way to funnel money from the middle class and poor to the rich while shielding it from taxation, then loaning money back to the guvmint to fund vital services (or just cut em or privatize them) The poor and middle class get to pay for this upward funneling and offshoring of money. Goldman facilitates with Harvard business degrees. There's was a thing down state from where I live that was protesting this scam back in 2011:
Occusumthin...

Or are you diggin that neoliberal consensus?


Gawd, that bit never gets old...



You may be right about Ojeda but the point is, his campaign will be important whether he wins or not.
If Bernie hadn't run I doubt very much we would be talking about a lot of the ideas popular today (medicare for all, Green New Deal, legalizing weed, etc...). Ideas that the centrists will have a hard time getting rid of or villifying if it gets emphasized by enough campaigns.



Edited by chunkstyle (11/24/18 11:12 PM)

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#309539 - 11/25/18 12:23 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Ken Condon Offline
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Quote:
Shoot, that aint hard to understand Gregor.

First of all Greger ain’t no former Pope. As a matter of fact he is some sort of howling at the moon and dancing in the night pagan--or something of that persuasion anyway.

But I thought you folks might be interested in this recent article from The Atlantic:

Will the Left go too far?
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#309540 - 11/25/18 03:32 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Ken Condon]
Greger Offline

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It's hard to say what's too far. Anything short of revolution is fair in my book. But it's really a matter of how far Our Corporate Overlords will let them go.
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#309546 - 11/25/18 06:15 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Offline
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'Never Trump' Republicans went Democrat in 2018. Are they gone for good? (NBC). The article doesn't answer the question posed, but it is an important question to understand, especially as important progressive agenda proposals are debated in Congress.

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#309548 - 11/25/18 08:05 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
'Never Trump' Republicans went Democrat in 2018. Are they gone for good? (NBC). The article doesn't answer the question posed, but it is an important question to understand, especially as important progressive agenda proposals are debated in Congress.


The perennial question for centrism: Should the democratic party act more like the democratic party or should it act more like the republican party so as not to offend the suburban vote. the reason I hate this article, NWP, is that it's a bunch of hot takes of the moment by quoting a raft of pollsters and PR firms for what it all means.
It had always come down to mobilizing the working and middle class by offering bold proposals that have popular support. These pollsters always look to their polling and try to divine the wind. I'd rather look to history and there was a time when the democratic party held a majority of congresional seats for decades. The obvious question, for me anyhow, has been 'so what's changed?'.
Pollsters and PR firms are only willing to go so far with that question.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/25/18 08:06 PM)

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#309550 - 11/25/18 08:21 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Ken Condon]
chunkstyle Offline
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Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
Quote:
Shoot, that aint hard to understand Gregor.

First of all Greger ain’t no former Pope. As a matter of fact he is some sort of howling at the moon and dancing in the night pagan--or something of that persuasion anyway.

But I thought you folks might be interested in this recent article from The Atlantic:

Will the Left go too far?


Boy, whenever I see a link to the Atlantic my defenses go up Ken.
Pretty interesting walk thru the history of the progressive party and political groups mounting pressures on FDR, etc...
I take issue with the authors framing of 'leftism' as eventual chaos. Also could take issue with the 'backlash' of bold progressive legislation. I never saw these counterforces coming from popular opinion but rather from a top down assault by the entrenched economic interests from 1676 to the present day.
I do think Beinart is correct about the ideas mainly coming from the left that have any broad popular support. I don't think his 'INCOMING!' anxieties about republican reaction is fully accurate. I subscribe to the 'convergence theory'- that by and by more people will find agreement on the system being jacked up and working against their interests than what the reasons are. But you godda have ideas to meet the problems.

To that end, Sanders has released a 10 point plan that he believes the democratic party should adopt and run on. It very much reminds me of a similar plan taken by Labor in the run up to the snap elections in the U.K. It ran in the washington post as an Op Ed peice on thanksgiving.
Sanders go big or go home challenge

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#309551 - 11/25/18 08:42 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
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Loc: Florida
Quote:
Never Trump' Republicans went Democrat in 2018. Are they gone for good? (NBC).

They are conservatives and will return to the Republican Party as soon as Trump is gone.Just because you can't stomach Donald Trump doesn't make you ready to jump the fence. They see Trump as a danger to the party

At this point I am convinced that you are born conservative or liberal.
Like "boys" and "girls" it is divided evenly at about 50% and as with sex, gender is on a sliding scale. I offer, as an example some, issues that fall dead center...
Trayvon Martin. Liberals will always side with the colored kid. Conservatives will side with Zimmergoon.

Abortion, same deal.

The 2nd amendment. Same.

The climate.

Taxes.

It goes on and on and on. Two tribes at war since time out of memory.
Some of the conservatives see Trump as an "outsider".


Edited by Greger (11/25/18 08:45 PM)
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#309552 - 11/25/18 09:46 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

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Registered: 11/24/06
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Loc: Florida
Bernie's still got a bully pulpit and he's using it well.

We are currently witnessing an episode where the right is going too far. The obvious prediction is that eventually public opinion will swing leftish a bit, liberals will seize control, progressives will will pull them further left. Public opinion will swing right. conservatives will seize control...
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#309553 - 11/26/18 01:28 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
Ken Condon Offline
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Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3833
Loc: Eugene, OR
And the seasons they go round and round
And the painted ponies go up and down
We're captive on the carousel of time
We can't return we can only look....
behind from where we came
And go round and round and round
In the circle game
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#309555 - 11/26/18 11:12 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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Is that SSDD Ken?

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#309556 - 11/26/18 12:29 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
An interesting op-ed peice from Hedges discussing the path towards neoliberal fascism. He quotes a lot from his recent video conversations with David Harvey on the history of neoliberalism.

The neoliberal road to fascism

As the Democratic Party becomes the party of the human hog farms of the wealthy suburbs, my fear is that it will find itself more wedded to the characteristics that define this large swath of Murica. An atomized society from which no culture grows or solidarity flourishes. It's organizing principle is consumption and convenience.
It's hard to see the Democratic Party escaping this cultural and political black hole. The irony will be when cannibal capitalism comes for them. What then?

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#309557 - 11/26/18 06:07 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
Quote:
What then?


Revolution.

Wouldn't be the first time in history that the proles were overrun by the bourgeoisie and forced into revolution.
The US is currently undergoing a civil war of sorts. A simmering hatred of one side for the other. It's hard to get a proper revolution going when the proles are already at war with themselves.

The bourgeoisie control the propaganda and keep the proles at each others throats so they can't organize a revolution.

So, in conclusion...no revolution is possible when revolution is the only possible solution. Our corporate overlords have got us by the short hairs.
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#309682 - 12/03/18 05:47 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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Uh Oh. there's gunna be some anger from the neolibs when they hear the jungle drums start beating again:
Sanders 2020

If he goes I wonder who he'll run with?

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#309689 - 12/04/18 12:44 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
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He is 77. Maybe it's time to find a protege to promote. Maybe several proteges.
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John Steinbeck

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#309691 - 12/04/18 01:35 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

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Registered: 11/24/06
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Loc: Florida
If Bernie can rekindle the excitement he's a shoo in.

But...any Democrat might be a shoo in if the Trump train goes off the rails between now and then.

Sherrod Brown might be a name to watch too.
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#309692 - 12/04/18 02:20 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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Yeah, Sherrod Brown looks to be the last democrat and will probably have to turn the lights off in Ohio for the Democratic Party. It's a shame he didn't back Sanders in the primary. Insiders said it felt like a real Betrayel for Sanders but that's politics. I like Brown. It. Can only help to have his voice in the mix.

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#309695 - 12/04/18 03:33 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
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UMASS just finished a study that found the saveings would be larger with medicare expansion for all than the previous Koch study found. By a LOT.
At this point, with 70% of Americans in favor of a medicare for all plan and a huge cost savings to the country with better outcomes one wonders why any so called Democrat would not back this as a major campaign issue for 2020. Aside from the objection coming from market world of ideas...
UMass study
THere's another effort here in New York called 'Healthy New York' that has been gaining traction. It would essentially divert monies that the state sends to the federal agency and funds a state level 'Medicare for all' system administered by a state board of trustees. It passed in the state house but was stymied in the senate due to the actions of the IDC (independant democratic coalition similar to Congressional 'Problem solver' caucus). Those so called Dems got voted out in the 2018 mid terms and there is really no reason it shouldn't pass but we'll see. Then there's the Cuomo guy in the governors mansion. He's a problem.
I like this topic, made mainstream by Sanders, in particular because it exposes the lie that the markets are the best way to distribute resources in the most efficient way. This subject is visceral to most Americans and shows what a con the Neoliberal consensus has been.
I very much hope we will see 'Medicare for All' gain momentum for 2020. One wonders if Trump will hop on board as he did with the rest of Sanders populist message in 2016.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/04/18 03:55 PM)

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#309696 - 12/04/18 04:12 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Sherrod Brown just got re-elected to the Senate. He can run for President and still serve in the Senate if not elected. I doubt it will hurt, and may buttress, his standing in Ohio. A Kasich-Brown contest would be fascinating. I like them both, but Kasich has too many Republican ideas.

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#309706 - 12/04/18 11:51 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13410
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
One wonders if Trump will hop on board as he did with the rest of Sanders populist message in 2016.


Which parts of Sanders' populist message did Trump hop on board with?
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309707 - 12/05/18 02:49 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
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Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
One wonders if Trump will hop on board as he did with the rest of Sanders populist message in 2016.


Which parts of Sanders' populist message did Trump hop on board with?


The corruption of Washington politicians.
Healthcare
Nafta, trade, jobs
De-industrialization
Solidarity with working class, etc etc

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#309713 - 12/05/18 10:00 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
I wouldn't exactly call making a lot of false promises "hopping on board".

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#309714 - 12/05/18 03:29 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
It goes back to the notion that "fascism is a populist movement without a left option".
Fascism has historically coopted language from the left and is doing it today. Here as well as Europe. The latest is the yellow vest protests in Paris where you see both socialists and fascist competing for the messaging and neither ceding the public space to the other.
Trumps no dummy in certain arenas, though it helps some people to think he is. His record is cunning self preservation and he'll steal any credit for something that's popular. He used the language of populism on his campaign trail. Mixed in with racism and xenophobia but a good deal was populist. My guess is he saw how well Sanders was doing started talking about the issues that he saw Sanders succeeding with. Issues that the Democratic establishment failed to take seriously at the time.
That may be changing now. The public is there on this issue but, unfortunately, the parties donors aren't. See Joe Manchin for an example.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/05/18 03:29 PM)

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#309755 - 12/08/18 06:44 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13410
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
One wonders if Trump will hop on board as he did with the rest of Sanders populist message in 2016.


Which parts of Sanders' populist message did Trump hop on board with?


The corruption of Washington politicians.
Healthcare
Nafta, trade, jobs
De-industrialization
Solidarity with working class, etc etc


I'm hesitant to link all of those directly with Sanders because I am somewhat convinced that Trump wanted to address NAFTA, trade, jobs and healthcare all along. Here is what he was talking about long before Sanders even announced his candidacy.

"The America We Deserve" - Donald Trump, 2000

_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309763 - 12/09/18 01:22 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Yeah, I get what your saying Jeff.
Populism can come in different shades but the american form, to my understanding of it, has generally been inclusive and economically progressive.
Trump's been blending that tradition with the other, darker variant.
He did, in fact, spend much time on the campaign trail going after the same subjects as Sanders was. Healthcare, jobs, wages etc...
You may recall his reaching out to disaffected sanders supporters after he lost the primary and the SH!t storm was brewing over the fixing of the primary confirmed by the leaked emails.
To me, it's a sign of Trumps shrewdness and Clinton's obtuseness. That's not an endorsement of what Trump was selling. Just my simple interpretation of the campaign.

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#309768 - 12/09/18 03:41 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13410
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Yeah, I get what your saying Jeff.
Populism can come in different shades but the american form, to my understanding of it, has generally been inclusive and economically progressive.
Trump's been blending that tradition with the other, darker variant.
He did, in fact, spend much time on the campaign trail going after the same subjects as Sanders was. Healthcare, jobs, wages etc...
You may recall his reaching out to disaffected sanders supporters after he lost the primary and the SH!t storm was brewing over the fixing of the primary confirmed by the leaked emails.
To me, it's a sign of Trumps shrewdness and Clinton's obtuseness. That's not an endorsement of what Trump was selling. Just my simple interpretation of the campaign.


As it was, I was on a crap-ton of Bernie Facebook groups during that period and it's awfully difficult to interpret it as Trump reaching out to Bernie Bros for me, because I was seeing Bernie Bros talking about Trump before the Democratic Convention.
Scads of them had already made up their minds that the nomination was corrupt and tilted against Bernie and that they were in a mood to put Trump in just to teach America a lesson.

Never mind that, by refusing to be a Democrat, Bernie was up against Rule Numero Uno in the DNC:

1. Choose a Democrat as candidate, no choosing OUTSIDE the party.

Rule Numero Dos:

2. Protect the chosen DNC candidate at all costs.

I've expounded on this innumerable times, you cannot be outside the party and expect that party to help you in a POTUS race. It just doesn't work that way, it never has and it likely never will.

But anyway, a month or even two months before the convention, a lot of hardcore Bernie or Bust Bros were announcing their intention to vote Trump if Bernie lost the primary, again...just to teach us all a lesson.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309772 - 12/09/18 06:21 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
That's the point where I lost a lot of respect for the Bernie Bros: Not for Bernie, because he was honest and would have worked to fulfill his campaign promises. But anybody who really thought Trump would or could fulfill any of those ideas he usurped from Bernie was an idiot. And the Bros who voted for Trump in a fit of pique over the primary were self-destructive idiots as well.

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#309775 - 12/09/18 04:06 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Ok a coupla points.


1st. There has been a good look at the historical rate of party switching and the evidence of this 'Bernie Bro' (T.M. Hillary 2016) defection happenned in any significant number above that historical average can't be found. But yeah, you were on a posting page so i guess what? Evidence? Ok. Nailed it Jeff. 538 has done some good number crunching on this vote shift for 2016 but don't let em fool ya. Fake News!
2nd: you should look into the origen of 'Bernie Bro'.

3rd: the ridiculousness of your argument that it's ok for the party to rig the primary Jeff. Seriously? I'm as cynical as the next guy but for all the faults of the republicans (a long list to be sure) one thing that's interesting is that they don't mess with their primaries to the level of the Democratic Party. They leave the fraud and grift for the general election.
You wanna know why they don't? Because it angers a certain percentage of their base. Democratic Party leadership, on the other hand, has been carving off chunks of it's left flank for decades now.

4th: Bernie ran on the democratic ticket. If you want a protect at all cost rule to be a rule then enforce it Jeff? If that's the case ( in Jeff world but I'll play along) then why let him into the race from the start?

One possibility was that he could be used as a foil for Hillaries anointing. My guess is they let him in believing they could present a farce as a real competition but, suprise suprise, what they got was, in fact, a real competitor who's ideas and positions were very popular. At that point they could have fought a real primary battle or choose to rig the primary. They chose to rig the primary. They leaks only confirmed what Sanders supporters knew. Indeed, as many down ballot progressive primary candidate knows. It's all about the money and the DNC is there to protect that. That is the North Star of the party leadership Jeff. It guides their every decision and will be our neoliberal tombstone if we don't wrest control from these classist greed heads. Your 'they godda be party members' rule is nonsense. They have primaried good progressives with republican candidates that reflagged themselves democrats for DCCC support. Your rules are just that. Yours.

It's like climate denial. Hillary supporters just can't admit what a lousy candidate she was. Your simply enabling a party that needs serious reforming.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/09/18 06:36 PM)

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#309780 - 12/09/18 08:04 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
I'm a Hillary supporter and I'll be the first to admit that she's a lousy candidate. It's her biggest weakness. Campaigning.
But I still think she would have been the perfect follow-up for Obama.
Instead we got a fellow whose strongest suit is campaigning. Once elected he had nothing to back up the sales pitch. No understanding of how the game is played and no respect for the rules. But a great candidate!

Both parties need serious reforming. Neither is liable to get it.

Because money.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#309785 - 12/10/18 04:19 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41065
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
I'm a Hillary supporter and I'll be the first to admit that she's a lousy candidate. It's her biggest weakness. Campaigning.

Ya' think?!? Hmm Campaigning M-F and taking weekends off. rolleyes

You'd think that Hillary acted like the gig was hers. coffee
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#309799 - 12/10/18 06:37 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Her policy positions (foreign, health care, minimum wage, race) made her a lousy candidate as well as her tone deafness and the campaigns hubris. For me anyway. The crucial battle ground states thought the same as well.
I'm still of a mind she's running again but time will tell.

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