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#309383 - 11/14/18 03:07 AM Re: Election Day [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
Break bread with white nationalists


Not at all. But break bread with Chamber of Commerce Republicans who think extremism and racism is bad for business. Meet with Christian Republicans who ended up there simply because of abortion. Did you know Hillary is a Methodist and has taught Sunday School?

Honest businessmen don't belong in the same party as Trump. Liberal Christians don't belong in the Republican Party, much less the Trump Abomination.


I guess it makes sense if her pastor was one of them ones that goes out and blesses bombs being loaded on the Tarmac.

You could also embrace a progressive platform of clearly articulated goals that would help Americans with their basic needs.
The current Republican Party is the chamber of commerce with the facade stripped away. Trump is what you get. He's the result of this two party rightward grope. You want more rightward grope PIA?
Why?

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#309388 - 11/14/18 05:08 AM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9851
Loc: North San Diego County
You cast all Republicans as identical monsters. That is naive, and prevents recruiting more liberal Republicans to join the anti-Trump effort. Just like every other Party, the GOP is a coalition of several different factions. Each has their own reasons for being there. But in the Trump era, maybe some of those reasons are not valid any longer.

You win elections by getting lots of people to vote for your party, not by making Party membership ideologically pure and excluding everybody who doesn't meet your standards.

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#309389 - 11/14/18 03:35 PM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
The republican party is now a party of mostly old white racists. If you don't know what time it is then I can't help you with that. You heven't been paying attention.

I'm sorry PIA, I've been asleep since the 'Contract with America' was promoted. How has the center right's passion for compromise been working out? Has the center right wimg Democrats brought about a fairer and more just society? Have they rolled back the damage of Reagans tax cuts and gotten the rich to start kicking in again? Did we finally pass medicaid for all? No?

Hmmmmm....

Well at least you've probably stopped the most egregious goals of the Ultra right from moving forward then....

Keep at it, there's gotta be a horse down there somewhere...

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#309396 - 11/14/18 10:10 PM Re: Election Day [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9851
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
The republican party is now a party of mostly old white racists.

I disagree. I know lots of Republicans who are NOT old White racists. I would agree that if you are an old White racist, you almost certainly are a Republican (or KKK, or Nazi but vote Republican).

There is also a large faction of business people who may not be racist at all. Also a large faction of evangelical folks who are there because they've been suckered in by the Republican pose on abortion. And don't forget the rich who feel the GOP best represents their financial interests. All three of these factions do include some Black and Hispanic people. Finally, there are young people who vote Republican because their parents did and "young punks" who are alt-right members because they are revolting from mainstream politics.

You probably can't recruit from the pool of old white racists: You just have to wait for them to die or become too senile to vote. Individuals from any of the other factions maybe could be convinced their reason for being there no longer applies.

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#309397 - 11/14/18 11:06 PM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Lemme make sure I have this correct PIA

Instead of trying to appeal to disenfranchised voters with bold policy proposals and force a contrast between Democrats and the nihilistic fascist opposition party, you want right wing Democrats to reach across the aisle and try and work with:

Business people who may not be racist at all.
Evangelical folks who are trying to get abortion banned.
Disaffected young punks (AKA Proud Boys, Trads, Maga Chuds, NeoNazi's)

Did I get that right?

Your saying you would rather work on getting these groups to come over in some kind of coalition building with the extreme right than appeal to non voters?

O.K., Ill play along. What would you suggest a coalition of the right wing Democrats and the Ultra right moderates actually propose?

Mind you, we have biblical wealth inequality, a dying planet, rising ethnic fascist nationalism. The neoliberal destruction of large swaths of american communities, organized labor under critical threat and market world being pushed on some of the last remnants of public space created under the old liberal order.

With that backdrop (and correct me if you think I'm being hyperbolic or inaccurate) what would the continuation of punching left while moving right hope to do to address any of those issues, from your perspective?





Edited by chunkstyle (11/14/18 11:09 PM)

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#309398 - 11/15/18 02:12 AM Re: Election Day [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16861
Loc: Florida
The Democratic party is NOT going to win moderate Republicans over to their side. If they did they would just become Republican light.


Oh wait...
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#309402 - 11/15/18 04:25 PM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Without broad and immediate structural changes to the democratic party, it will pave the way to neofascism as it has done in many parts of the world already.
PIA just articulated how it will come about.

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#309403 - 11/15/18 06:58 PM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9851
Loc: North San Diego County
You started your reply with a straw man, and then proceeded to demolish it. Well done!

I never said anything about right-wing Democrats and I never proposed that Democrats should change to more right-leaning policies. I just said talk to some of the factions in the Republican Party, because they may be demonizing Democrats with little understanding what our positions are. Have some faith that our policies and proposals would be good for the country and if people give them a fair listen, they might actually like them.

Remember all those Tea Party folks who said: "Keep the government's hands off our MediCare and Social Security"? Do you think maybe somebody should have explained to them in very simple terms that those were both government programs created by Democrats, that Republicans have been trying to kill for decades? If that had been a priority, maybe a lot of Tea Party members would now be Democrats. Do you really think they would have decided to embrace Republican ideas about killing MediCare and Social Security?

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#309404 - 11/15/18 07:32 PM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Shucks PIA, I was going for the trifecta of straw man argument, logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks. Just straw man?

Go back and read the thread. I was beefing about thestrategy of boomers fetishising 'bi-partisonship' and framing it as a 'marketplace of ideas'.

There's a lot to attack about that neutered approach to politics. The most obvious is one of humanitarian reasons. The republican party is trumps party and you defend trying to find bipartisonship with mythical moderates. You gave some pretty eyebrow raising examples of who they might be.

That's your position. Fine. I would challenge that argument and did. It's also how you turn a mildly left party into a ineffectual center right party and cede ground to a rising fascist ultra right.

I agree there are many overlapping areas of common interest in the public sphere. Your two examples, Social Security and Medicare are from the old liberal political force that went away with Carter. The neoliberals are an empty, hollowed out, market world oriented pathology that has led the democratic party away from what was it's historic role (with bumps and warts included). It has no ideas except norms and values (whatever the heck that means), habitual desire for bi-partisanship (that gets them played every time), and a constant hard on for free market solutions for capitalist problems. The Bewitched 'if capitalism got you into this problem then capitalism can get you out' fixation.

The current right wing has some very definite ideas. All of them even worse than neoliberalism.

I'm saying we need leadership to throw this car in reverse and mat it like a big lizard is on our arse. Your saying lets cautiously go forward and find those mythical conservatives, that are not a part of Trumps cult, cuz market places and bipartisonship. Good luck with that.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/15/18 07:33 PM)

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#309406 - 11/15/18 08:03 PM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17388
OK, reality check. Bipartisanship (a word and concept that I hate, as it implies only two points of view) is a requirement in the upcoming Congress. Democrats control only one House of the Congress. They have great leverage, no question (since all budget bills have to start there), but they cannot get anything done unless they get the Senate to go along. That will, necessarily, require compromises.

I am ALL FOR pushing a progressive agenda, where the best ideas currently reside, but at some point in the process compromise will have to occur. Moreover, the ultra-progressive views of some new legislators do not represent the majority of the citizenry any more than the ultra-conservative TEA party caucus does. That reality will require some to make that realization sooner or later. It is the same dynamic that is at work in the fight against Pelosi. The left-left have bought into the BS peddled by the right that she is some kind of impediment to progress or a conservative in liberal clothing. She is not (nor was Clinton, but not fighting that battle here). If the new Congress does not lean on the experience of the current Democratic leadership, they will get NOTHING done.

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