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Justice is coming
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ICE - the new gestapo
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What Left?
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Another Solution
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Archie Moore vs Yvon Durelle, December 10, 1958
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The Passing Parade: Obituaries: 2018
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Is it too soon to be talking 2020?
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12/10/18 06:37 PM
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None of the Above (NOTA)
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Israel negotiating with Hungary on revisionist Holocaust museum
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Brexit Eve
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12/04/18 04:26 PM
Miscellaneous humor thread
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12/04/18 12:52 AM
Our political elders
by Greger
12/03/18 02:52 AM
Round table NOVEMBER 2018
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12/01/18 07:59 PM
Historic Corruption
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11/30/18 08:36 PM
Sleazy Slimeball or Slimy Sleazebag?
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11/30/18 08:25 PM
2 million federal workers receive memo warning they can’t use the word ‘resist
by pondering_it_all
11/30/18 06:45 AM
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#309671 - 12/03/18 05:12 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8069
Loc: North San Diego County
But that 20000 pages of regulations in ACA was for the insurance companies, not for us pilgrims. You know, the companies that will hire 500 hundred lawyers to search for loopholes so they don't have to pay your claims? They NEEDED 20000 pages to tell those bastards exactly what they weren't allowed to do to us.

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#309673 - 12/03/18 02:32 PM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16372
For 13 years of my career I was immersed in "regulated industries" - things like gambling, liquor control, tow trucks, motor carriers and insurance. It isn't until you do that kind of work that you really get a feel for how utterly necessary most regulations are. Now, there are instances where there are too many regulations, but they are far, far fewer than those that are too little regulation. When someone complains about "too much regulation", I always ask myself,"what are they trying to get away with?". 9 times out of ten, it is about encroaching on profit, not about the reasonableness of the regulation itself.

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#309675 - 12/03/18 03:48 PM Re: What Left? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: jgw
The problem with Regulation is, basically, that them that would regulate regularly go waaaaaaay too far (an example of that one was the approximately 20,000 pages of regulations in Obamacare gifted to us by the 'left')


Thank you JGW, you illustrated perfectly the point I was trying to make originally on this thread with that observation.

It wasn't the 'left' that gifted us with that million moving parts product called Obamacare. Instead, it was a creation of a always hopeful center right democratic market world orientation searching for moderate republican votes for a very public problem. There was no left involvement in the crafting of that bill once the public option was blocked by the center right democrats.
Yet you think of that legislation coming from the left? Hmmmm.....

That's the problem. It denies a political identity and voice to a true political left when the centrists position themselves as 'the left. They are far from it and you could make the argument that they are more akin to Eisenhower Republicans than traditional democrats. What it does is confuse people as to what 'left' wing politics are by co-opting it's identity. That's not an accident, by the way, but a result of Third way' positioning. It is meant to smother a left wing voice in the political arena.

To reduce left wing politics as simply being in favor of regulation or not is an oversimplification and a mistake. The left is very much in favor of a more democratic organization of capitalism for starters. Less than that would be at least a right to organize to negotiate wth bosses over wages, as an example of a more 'left' positioning politically. The center right Democrats have walked away from that idea and have taking union votes for granted since Bill Clinton. We saw it on display in 2016 and this time it finally cost the centrist party the presidency.
If you want to read what leftist politics are about today JGW, you might look at the Labour manifesto from the Labour party in the U.K. You will find stark differences in political positioning from our neoliberal center right Dem party in the U.S.
It should throw into contrast the differences between the centrists Dems and a true 'left': Labour Manifesto


Edited by chunkstyle (12/03/18 04:00 PM)

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#309676 - 12/03/18 04:16 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Another example of a left wing political voice to our south:
Privatization is theft

A perspective eradicated in U.S. politics with a few notable exceptions recently. A big difference in perspective than the 'ladders of opportunity' ideology dominating the Democratic Party. Obrador did not make a pilgrimage to Goldman Sachs to fund his message.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/03/18 04:50 PM)

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#309717 - 12/05/18 07:53 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2194
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
If you read the original obamacare bill you will not places that have a blank underline "______". This is a signal, to the bureaucracy to fill it in. This was not something to do with making pals with the Republicans, it was due to incompetent, lazy, legislation. I should also add that the Republicans were responsible for half of that bill. If you can find the c-span video of the markups you will see what I am talking about. I post this on this site when I watched it.

You are, however, right about Obama trying to be pals with the Republicans. The fact, however, is that the Republicans, right after Obama was elected stated, on tv, that their goal was to fight ANY legislation Obama might try and pass and they were very effective in that regard. This is, incidentally, why Jackass can so easily back out stuff Obama did. This is because he was unable to legislate and had to do it by fiat and Jackass could just undue them under the same system.

I think that you are saying that Unions lost membership due to Republican legislation. The simple fact is that Unions simply went too far. I can remember, for instance, when GM went on strike over the fact that GM was unwilling to pay for magazine subscriptions for the washrooms. I have had my own problems with Unions so I can talk with some experience in that matter. I am not against them, when they make sense. On the other hand the Teamsters, for instance, didn't support their own membership, at the time, so much as demanding high fees for joining so that they could fund mafia casinos in Las Vegas. I actually had one business wherein the employees themselves choose to vote the Teamsters out. I suspect things have changed but, no longer being involved, I have no idea if they have or not.

One of the problems, in the United States, is that there seems to be little or no moderation and greed is rampant. Without moderation, and a willingness to work things out, things will continue to at least seem to be in decline. When we have a situation like what we have now, with the Republicans AND the Democrats screaming at each other instead of talking, having a congress that may work as much as 3 days a week and take off, literally months (congress is like our schools. Christmas vacation, Easter Vacation, Summer Vacation, etc), to raise money to keep their jobs, our politics are always going to stink no matter who is in charge. I blame the voters for this one. They just don't seem to give a damn. (not all, but enough to make a difference).

I am, incidentally, not really interested in starting a battle over this stuff. It is what it is and its unlikely to change real quick.

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#309719 - 12/05/18 08:21 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13409
Loc: Whittier, California
Go to any shopping mall in America today.

Much of the mall is filled with stores that sell mostly useless crap made in China for a cheap price. Not much thought went into the quality of that crap because all Americans care about is the price. And most of the parking spaces are occupied by the most popular vehicle in America today, the Ford F150 4X4 pickup truck.
It's so damn popular, in fact, that Ford has stopped making all cars, except for the Mustang.

The Ford F150 4X4's you see, most if not all of them have never been off the asphalt, despite their large and imposing lift kits and big meaty tires.
And even if they did go off road, most of the drivers are so incompetent and poorly trained that they would get stuck if they did venture into the wild.

The trucks use a lot of gas, but the owners don't care, as long as they appear to be big. strong and capable.

Our leadership, our unions, our work product, our approach to community and our world outlook are all a lot like the typical Ford F150 4X4's that occupy most of the parking spots in a typical shopping mall.

But all of it has the APPEARANCE of being big, strong and capable, until you put it to the test.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#309720 - 12/05/18 09:43 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 370
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
We are still big, strong and capable, it just that our civilian leadership are small, weak and incapable most times.

We are not a bad people, through out most of the world the American people are liked, even in places like Iran, it is just our government and governmental decisions and actions that are disliked. My proof, all the immigrants, especially the refugees, trying to come here.
_________________________
Vote 2020.

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#309721 - 12/05/18 11:32 PM Re: What Left? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1158
Originally Posted By: jgw


I think that you are saying that Unions lost membership due to Republican legislation. The simple fact is that Unions simply went too far. I can remember, for instance, when GM went on strike over the fact that GM was unwilling to pay for magazine subscriptions for the washrooms. I have had my own problems with Unions so I can talk with some experience in that matter. I am not against them, when they make sense. On the other hand the Teamsters, for instance, didn't support their own membership, at the time, so much as demanding high fees for joining so that they could fund mafia casinos in Las Vegas. I actually had one business wherein the employees themselves choose to vote the Teamsters out. I suspect things have changed but, no longer being involved, I have no idea if they have or not.



The Unions had their problems to be sure. Many of them were just skimming operations for the union heads while cozying up to management. I've been in them and have nothing good to say about them. They are not all perfect but I would much rather work in a union than not. Workers tend to do better. Much better.

As far as Republican legislation you only have to look at one that spelled a steady decline for union membership: Taft Hartley

Combine that with the steady erosion of right to work laws (anti union organizing), management class demonizing them in the culture and media and a complicit Democratic party and you have what we have today. Stagnating wages over four decades, lowest labor uptake of GDP, lowest union participation, record high housing cost ratio to income, etc.

What's wrong with magazines in the bathrooms by the way? Is that so egregious as my state building a billionaire a new warehouse in NYC? The level of socializing profit to a small population of executives and shareholders these days is astonishing. But asking for education and healthcare? the public is somehow not there yet according to Democratic party leadership.
Hmmmmmm.....

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#309725 - 12/06/18 11:13 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2194
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I know, its easier blaming the decline in union membership on gov. I repeat, I had one business where the employees, on their own, decided to stop their participation in the Teamster's You are right about Taft Hartley but its certainly not the only reason. The right to work is also at fault but the title remains correct. Its why, for instance, Boing moved to one of the Carolinas. Basically, right to work states tend to get a lot of the jobs because they are right to work. All that being said, Unions have a LOT of baggage that is not conducive to increasing membership.

I am not sure about the Democratic party leadership (other than they are waaay too old, set in their ways and oversaw massive losses due to not paying attention) on healthcare and education. On the other hand healthcare needn't even be a social issue so much as an economic issue. Take the VA (which Jackass is trying to privatize). They provide healthcare at a significant saving over private care:
https://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/08/va_hospitals_vs.html
https://www.legion.org/legislative/testimony/225841/examining-quality-and-cost-va-health-care

I am against any healthcare by gov unless its completely paid for by taxes and gov takes over the entire industry, lock, stock and barrel. If they did that, and joined up with the rest of the industrialized world the nation would save well over 1 trillion dollars annually. I consider healthcare AND education to be the same as police departments, the army, the navy, fire departments and libraries. They should be treated exactly the same and should be paid for by the entire nation, just as they are in most of the rest of the world. The main difference, especially in education, in other countries, is that to do higher education you must be qualified and work at it. I also think that the debts incurred by those in higher education is, literally, a crime and just plain wrong. We now have an entire generation of indebted due to higher education as well as claimed, and failed higher education. I used to have a heart specialist that had a huge debt after graduation. She paid 100,000 against that debt and it didn't even touch the principle. The interest on such debts, which gov owns, is approximately 2 times what plain banks would have charged! (its REALLY wrong!)

I should also mention that my reps in congress all support healthcare and education as social necessities.

In closing. Our government has not had a study and re-organization since the Hoover Commission (around 1946). I blame that fact on gov having what can only be considered a runaway bureaucracy. We REALLY need another Hoover Commission with teeth. The last one was responsible for at least 7 major government re-organizations. I am sure that Obamacare would never have been buried in unnecessary regulations had that had been done. I also have my suspicions about the length of current legislation over the same stuff 20 years ago (if you go back to the 1950's the increase even three times long)

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#309733 - 12/07/18 04:41 AM Re: What Left? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14415
Loc: Florida
I enjoyed your rant, jgw, but will pick at this minor point because this is the direction I think we're headed on healthcare.
Quote:
I am against any healthcare by gov unless its completely paid for by taxes

Medicare For All is what you're gonna get. You can call your Medicare premiums "taxes" if you want and coverage isn't exactly all inclusive without supplemental plans. Our government isn't very good at designing things from the ground up but it might be able to build on an established and popular program like Medicare.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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