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#309751 - 12/08/18 06:28 PM Re: Justice is coming [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14191
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It really appears from the Manafort and Cohen filings that the Trumps' geese are cooked. Moreover, Mueller is REALLY emphasizing that cooperation means FULL AND HONEST cooperation. Cohen will get 4+ years, and Manafort 10 or more. It will be hard NOT to hold impeachment hearings when conspiracy to commit election fraud had been explicitly alleged against the President. Moreover, Donald Junior and the Trump organization are directly accused of Russian collusion.


Ahem...excuse me...
The new word for collusion is "synergy".
LOL
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#309752 - 12/08/18 06:29 PM Re: Justice is coming [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14191
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: jgw
I wonder how the folks relying on presidential pardon are going to act if the Supremes uphold the law that kinda allows double jeopardy?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme...dy-rule-n944891

That being said there is another little point. It seems that if somebody actually gets a presidential pardon then they are, by law (apparently), forced to answer any question by a prosecutor.

Kindofa damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of deal. In this case especially for Jackass?


Ahem...excuse me...
The new word for "Jackass" is now "Individual 1".
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#309753 - 12/08/18 06:39 PM Re: Justice is coming [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6777
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
It will be hard NOT to hold impeachment hearings when conspiracy to commit election fraud had been explicitly alleged against the President.

hmmm ... over sex!!!???

everyone does it ... they correct the filings ... they pay a fine .... and you expect Republicans to get excited???

Quote:
Donald Junior and the Trump organization are directly accused of Russian [criminal?] collusion.

Unless SP Mueller has concrete evidence I think it will be hard to convince Trump supporters, allies, and Republicans in general (I suspect Democrats already believe Mr Trump IS Satan, so there is nothing to prove) these folks are involved in a conspiracy. I think when one tries to argue they were rubbing elbows with Russians, people expect babies.

While all the speculation sounds promising, I am still going to have to wait for THE report.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#309759 - 12/08/18 07:45 PM Re: Justice is coming [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8734
Loc: North San Diego County
The filings said explicitly that the SCO had corroborating evidence about this stuff. Mueller has not said what that evidence is, but you can bet he has it. Stuff like incriminating emails, documents, and tax returns. And best of all, Trump's written responses to Mueller's questions that Trump claimed he wrote personally.

Paying off bimbos to influence the election hardly matters at all, in my book. What really matters is Cohen lying to Congress about the Trump Tower project timeline, and then making a public statement that it ended in January 2016. That was a signal to multiple witnesses as to what they should say to investigators. Then all of these other witnesses confirmed to Congress and the FBI (Southern District of NY and the SCO) that the project ended in January. Maybe including Trump's written answers! Then Cohen later admits it went on until June and he briefed Trump and family what was happening. Yesterday we found out the Trump Tower project could have netted the Trump Organization 100's of millions of dollars.

So federal prosecutors have stated in court (essentially under oath) that the President has co-conspired in multiple felonies. This is far worse than Watergate, and the main difference is that we have a Senate Majority that is willing to act as accessories after the fact.

This really is all about a Russian plot to steal a billion dollars from a US financier and to murder his faithful tax lawyer Sergei Magnitsky. America responded to that murder by passing the Magnitsky Act, sanctioning several Russians involved. This directly affects Putin because his position depends on protecting his oligarch buddies who have large real estate investments in America. Remember in 2014 when Eric Trump bragged about getting a lot of money from Russia? Well, Putin elected Trump because he had financial hooks into Trump, and Trump could soften or end the Magnitsky Act.

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#309760 - 12/08/18 10:35 PM Re: Justice is coming [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17016
No one is surprised by Trump having extra marital affairs - he's been paying women for sex his entire life, and all his later marriages were the result of them. What IS important is that Trump knew that exposure of the newest ones (during his current marriage) would likely have affected the election, just like John Edwards. That is the criminal act and why it is so destructive. But, Republicans don't care about destruction - they do it all the time. Criminality is a constant in Republican politics.

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#309761 - 12/09/18 12:01 AM Re: Justice is coming [Re: pondering_it_all]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6777
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
the SCO had corroborating evidence

The corroboration was regarding Cohen and Manafort.

Only the Cohen evidence implicated Mr Trump in campaign finance violations. So ... pay the fine and we get "No collusion".

As far as the Moscow Tower ... everyone lied, so what is the crime? No one cares about the lie, however, what is of interest is the nexus of Russian meddling and Trump's campaign. The reason this is of interest is there could be a possibility of conspiracy. Unfortunately the only evidence presented involved Cohen and his lies, and the possibility Mr Trump had knowledge of the negotiations.

So we can speculate that all that elbow rubbing produced babies or we can wait to see if there really is some evidence of a conspiracy. All it really means is investigators are in the House.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#309762 - 12/09/18 12:06 AM Re: Justice is coming [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14191
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
But, Republicans don't care about destruction - they do it all the time. Criminality is a constant in Republican politics.


But the real crime is that they seem to have managed to normalize it to the point where they're convinced that they can get away with it.
I guarantee you that any Democrat who attempts the same will be met by a screaming chorus of Republicans demanding prosecution to the fullest extent of the law, and beyond.

The real crime is, Trump Republicans believe that not only is Trump above the law, but that the only real law is that which issues from his mouth as he speaks it.

The real crime is, Trump Republicans do not see America as a nation of laws, but only as a nation of men, men like Trump who utter the law as he sees fit.

We are now just another banana republic, with better shopping malls, bigger trucks and bigger highways.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#309764 - 12/09/18 01:53 AM Re: Justice is coming [Re: rporter314]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8734
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Only the Cohen evidence implicated Mr Trump in campaign finance violations. So ... pay the fine and we get "No collusion".


It doesn't work that way. Trump et al wish it did, but it doesn't. Accidental campaign finance law breaking is usually penalized by paying back the money, paying the fine and moving on. If you set out to do it knowing it is illegal and then go to great lengths to cover it up afterwards, that shows corrupt intent. That is a felony and people go to prison for it. The fact that Trump had his lawyer do it is is strong evidence that he had corrupt intent because any lawyer would have known it was illegal.

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#309765 - 12/09/18 01:59 AM Re: Justice is coming [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8734
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
The real crime is, Trump Republicans believe that not only is Trump above the law, but that the only real law is that which issues from his mouth as he speaks it.

The real crime is, Trump Republicans do not see America as a nation of laws, but only as a nation of men, men like Trump who utter the law as he sees fit.


Absolutely true, but it's real hard to convict anybody of those crimes.

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#309767 - 12/09/18 02:11 AM Re: Justice is coming [Re: rporter314]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8734
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
As far as the Moscow Tower ... everyone lied, so what is the crime? No one cares about the lie


Perjury for corrupt intent.

Bill Clinton's REAL crime is that he got a BJ under the desk in the Oval Office instead of off in some private love nest like Newt was doing at the time. Or like Kennedy did. Or like Ike did, etc. All the way back to Thomas Jefferson and probably beyond.

But he got impeached for Perjury: You have to convict people for actual simple straightforward crimes, not big nebulous possible conspiracies. I'm not saying there wasn't a big conspiracy to elect Trump with Russia help so he could kill sanctions. I bet Mueller can prove it too, with real hard documentary evidence. But he's already released enough to impeach.

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