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#309840 - 12/12/18 09:53 PM Re: What Left? [Re: jgw]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15434
Loc: Florida
Quote:
you don't vote for either side and are expecting some kind of new political party that will save us all.



Idealistic, no? But I have inside information that Chunkstyle may have voted more than once for third party candidates!

And I have a hunch that starting in 2020 we're gonna see a lot more candidates like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who will transform the Democratic Party into some kind of new political party that will save us all.

'Cause down deep...you know the Democratic Party we have now is not going to bring about the important and difficult changes our government needs to make.
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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#309841 - 12/12/18 10:00 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1714
What's confusing JGW?
My political label? What's my opinion of the environment?
Frankly, I started a debate on the concept of their not being a 'left' political presence in the Democratic party. I offered a critique of the parties direction and my own opinion on what 'Left' means in our historic political sense. I've also given examples on how the Democratic power structure actively thwarts any contemporary leftist candidacy by witholding it's support in the primaries. That it's alienated it's historic left leaning base of support, preferring tech and the FIRE economies.
I've also listed it's incredibly harmful policies over the last 35 years that could hardly be described as 'left'.
Finally, I've tried to explain that the Democratic party, as it currently exists, by calling itself the 'left' wing of our two party system, does a disservice to a true left political alternative.

That's the argument. What's the response been like:

Why is it important?
Loyalty to the party apparatus and organization over it's constituents.
An unwillingness to engage in a critique of some of the less savory positions of Democratic party.
Joking I might be a troll, Russian or otherwise.
A label thrower. Whatever that means.
Demanding I 'reveal' what my political position is.

Basically, my style has come under attack but, so far as I can tell, not the substance of my arguments, except that I'm not using 'labels' correctly and I shouldn't anyways cuz - bad.

If you want to ask me a specific question about my political opinion JGW go ahead and I'll answer you as direct as I can. I might not have to resign myself to calling the argument useless due to willful obtuseness.






Edited by chunkstyle (12/13/18 01:19 AM)

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#309843 - 12/13/18 02:22 AM Re: What Left? [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1714
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
you don't vote for either side and are expecting some kind of new political party that will save us all.



'Cause down deep...you know the Democratic Party we have now is not going to bring about the important and difficult changes our government needs to make.



There is a movement currently underway for breaking off a large chunk of the Democratic base, independents and new voter turnout as well as the traditional progressive third parties and create a new working class progressive party that would take up the causes that the Democratic Party won't.
One major differences from earlier attempts at this sort of thing is the national mood towards the two dominant political parties and labor unions finally admitting they no longer have a home in the existing Democratic Party.
Time will tell how successful it will be but theirs no denying that, after 2016, anythings possible.
The flaw of triangulation could be that there could emerge another place to go.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/13/18 02:27 AM)

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#309846 - 12/13/18 06:38 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8770
Loc: North San Diego County
Now if we just had a parliamentary form of government, that would be swell! As it is, it just means more Republicans running everything.

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#309849 - 12/13/18 01:08 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1714
Maybe PIA, but it has been moving that way anyhow since the first conservative revolution. As it stands, it's been money over everything for some time now.
The Democratic Party can't reform itself and has proven insufficient to deal with problems we face.
It won't make changes that could help it perform better. It will reflexively pull back more and more from its constituencies and curb political space to only true believers and donors as all corrupt organizations do. Or, as Hedges puts it, it's retreating to the forbidden city where, behind walls and armed protection, it will deliver new edicts and proclaimations of grand successes as all decaying institutions eventually do. It will come to see the problems stemming from democracy itself and will move to limit its access to only those that will perpetuate it's legitimacy.
This is where we are. There's some tremendous efforts going on to change the trajectory but as the party offers nothing to more and more people, decade after decade, a new party may be a final Hail Mary pass. It's a slim chance but isn't that the point of a Hail Mary?
The Democratic Party got rid of the counter forces, as imperfect as they were, long ago with the exile of it's left. It got rid of any force for equality, fraternity and solidarity. That was keeping our facist tendencies in check for awhile but not any longer. We now have a party committed to heirarchy, loyalty and fealty. Good for some, not so good for most. I'm afraid that were heading to the logical political conclusion. It's not going back to what it was and, in the end, the Democratic Party will side with fascism as well.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/13/18 01:21 PM)

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#309850 - 12/13/18 01:22 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9437
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Hereís the roster of The Left thatís emerging to run for president in 2020.

Top Ten Dems Today
_________________________
You canít solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#309851 - 12/13/18 05:22 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15434
Loc: Florida
Quote:
it's been money over everything for some time now.

It's always been money over everything. That's not going to change.
But smart money makes smart decisions. That's why you don't see a lot of steam locomotives or gaslights on the streets anymore.

Quote:
The Democratic Party can't reform itself and has proven insufficient to deal with problems we face.

It's not the party's job to reform itself. That's our job as voters.

The Republican Party has already embraced nationalism, racism, corporatism, authoritarianism and a wide swath of isms directly associated with fascism. I really don't think we're seeing the same tendencies in the Democratic Party.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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#309852 - 12/13/18 07:24 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2565
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
3rd parties have been tried, again, and again, and again. They have all failed. The simple fact is that we have a binary political system in this country. Its always been that way and only the names have changed. Republicans used to be Tories and then an argument over slavery happened and Republicans that didn't support slavery started the Republicans and the Tories didn't have enough members left to support their party.

That can happen to the Democrats too. If the democratic socialist feel they have enough folks on their side they can try to recreate the Democratic party. If not then they better stick with the Democrats as it is, right now, the current party of resistance. A Binary system means there are two sides and folks gotta decide what side they are on. If, for instance, the Democratic Socialists determine that they are strong enough to do it on their own, and they are wrong, they will have given the election to the other side. Same holds true with the Republicans.

The trick, for both sides is to fully explain what each side believes and supports. What now happens is the both sides try to demonize the other side. The real problem is twofold. The first problem are people who support one side over the other and have the big bucks to make their points. The second problem are the lies told, by either side, to make their point. Oh, there is a third problem - that group of voters who believe in not only their side but all the lies about the other side. All this, in turn, boils down to big bucks and lies, and closed minds and lies. The unfortunate truth is that when the supremes allowed big bucks into politics everything became skewed. Suddenly the Republicans, favored by the upper 1% could simply out spend the other side which also meant their lies could be made more believable, their promises better sounding, etc. This, in turn, forced the Democrats to spend much of their time trying to get money so that they could fight back. Over time, I think, the Dems became more obsessed with money than politics and they suddenly lost most of the states as well as congress and the presidency.

I am not sure there is any way to deal with the lies. This becomes especially true give the number of folks, on either side, that refuse to hear anything bad about 'their' side and buy ALL the baloney of 'their' side. The money, however, can be fixed. The first thing is for Congress including the senate, passes a bill that states that, for political purposes, Money is not speech and speech is not money. The other part is to pass legislation that also states, for political or tax purposes - corporations are not the same as a single human being. I think this is within the purview of congress and is probably doable. Then the only thing left to do is to educate the electorate (I wish us all luck with that one).

Insfar as voting is concerned every ballot needs a "none of the above" option. The other thing is to make voting mandatory. Incidentally, mandatory voting does not mean that people must vote on something but they do have to submit a ballot, even if blank.

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#309855 - 12/14/18 02:26 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14296
Loc: Whittier, California
The Republican Party is the Oligarch Party.
The only reason oligarchs need numerical presence is that starving peasants will kill anyone who threatens their gleaner's patch.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#309860 - 12/14/18 04:49 PM Re: What Left? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15434
Loc: Florida
The Republican Party is fully owned by Our Corporate Overlords.

But don't ever think that the Democrats are completely autonomous.
Donald Trump was not in the Oligarch's playbook, they expected(like everyone else) that Hillary Clinton would be delivering the goods behind the scenes right now rather than Trump's hamfisted economic policy. Clinton would have been far better for all concerned, rich and poor alike.

But as is almost always the case...the rich would get richer and the poor poorer.

We seriously need an adjustment where the rich gain a little less and the poor finally get a break. Even for just a little while.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."ó Oscar Wilde

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