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#309734 - 12/07/18 04:47 AM Re: What Left? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14319
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
I enjoyed your rant, jgw, but will pick at this minor point because this is the direction I think we're headed on healthcare.
I am against any healthcare by gov unless its completely paid for by taxes

Medicare For All is what you're gonna get. You can call your Medicare premiums "taxes" if you want and coverage isn't exactly all inclusive without supplemental plans. Our government isn't very good at designing things from the ground up but it might be able to build on an established and popular program like Medicare.

Yup, true. We already HAVE the infrastructure built, so we don't NEED to build an entirely new infrastructure and reinvent the system.
It's there, and the large question is just how we intend to pay for it, and how much.

We missed the chance to build out a government health care infrastructure after WW2 had just ended, which is when the Brits decided to do it. Oh, of course it also helped that much of Britain's larger infrastructure was reduced to rubble at the time.
But anyway, that was the time period where Uncle Sam might have had a convincing argument to build out such a system to replace what we had, much the way Interstate freeways replaced a lot of the old U.S. Highway system.

Now it's here, and it's huge, and it covers most of the nation.
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

#309740 - 12/07/18 07:25 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8779
Loc: North San Diego County
We already have tons of hospitals, clinics, doctors, nurses, PAs, labs, etc. Insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, or VA already pay for just about everything. All we would be paying in addition are the idiots who skip insurance and then get in a major accident. Even those idiots end up being covered by Medicaid once their savings and house are gone.

So it can't possibly cost more than we are paying already. It has to cost less because we let insurance companies make 20% overhead, while those very same companies process all the Medicare claims for just 5% overhead. And make a profit doing that!

What they could do so there are no shocks to the system, is to just lower the Medicare age by five years each year. So in 2019, everybody 60 gets Medicare. In 2020, everybody 55. And so on.

One thing I'd really like to see is drug patent reform. Some drugs are making a 20000% profit, and it really makes Medicare expensive. Limit all companies to 1000% profit across all their drugs, or they lose their exclusivity rights. Then limit royalties they can charge the generic manufacturers to that 1000%.

#309742 - 12/07/18 03:38 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1748
As someone who lost his job (end of an era), and started my own humble one, I had to purchase insurance as an individual thru COBRA then the Chamber of Commerce, I can assure you that it wasn't ignorance that made me stop buying the Chamber's insurance plan. It was simply unaffordable. When you don't have it you don't have it. That's not ignorance but a growing reality for more Americans. Ask the 15k GM workers about to lose theirs. The Carrier workers that already have. Stop making healthcare an employer benefit.
Medicare for all is the only logical way forward.

Edited by chunkstyle (12/07/18 04:16 PM)

#309744 - 12/07/18 05:47 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1748
Back to the point, It's been an interesting week for the embryonic left wing of American politics. The two events that featured biggest for me were;
Sanders appearing on Colbert to discuss a decidedly left wing agenda. In that conversation he was asked about the realism of his proposals while having Mitch McConnel and republicans controlling the Senate. Sander's reply was actual politics as I have come to understand it. Draw sharp differences between yourself and your opponent by championing bold proposals that have broad popular support.........
It's as though he's describing an alternative to the knee jerk corporate wing of the democratic party by offering voters politics instead of the centrists fetish for consensus. Bipartisanship. Reaching across the aisle . Market place of ideas and other slobber masquerading as politics but is really nothing more than supporting status quo for the donor class. Imagine! Sanders describes political strategy

Second was the young Turks recently elected and doing a public service of taking their constituents along for the ride and sharing the process of indoctrination into "how things are done". I hope that this will prove just as effective as the POTUS rallies that the presidents has been doing for his loyalist. Keeping them warm for a crucial midterm instead of letting them go to sleep as past administrations have been inclined to do. In particular, Ocasio Cortez's taking us inside the Washington establishment is effectively breaking down the corporate wall of perception, mainly the corporate press, and allowing us to see conservative think tanks and Goldman (who else) sponsoring congressional freshmen orientation night at Harvard (why haven't we burned that Mordor equivalent to the ground!) and the SWEET healthcare package congressmen receive.
Freshmen Orientation

I won't bother mentioning the 'Green New Deal' suffice to say it's been the only rational sane proposal that I've seen from Washington in many years and it's taken a 'Lefty" freshmen to champion it. All in all it was a very interesting week in Washington.

Edited by chunkstyle (12/07/18 05:52 PM)

#309745 - 12/07/18 08:15 PM Re: What Left? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
jgw Offline

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2568
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The problem with just about any expenditures, new or old, is that there IS NO MONEY! The tax program of the Republicans and Jackass took care of any money that might be available. On top of that we are in the beginning of an economic downturn which, I think, will be kinda devistating.

The Right (I know, no right or left)in collusion with Jackass, the Russians and Saudis and Israelis has, pretty much, wrecked any thoughts of doing just about anything but trying to pay the bills. There have actually been some talking heads suggesting that Jackass has no plans to even pay down the debt (I am not sure how that can be). Anyway - all this talk of healthcare and education for all, etc. is just plain old wishful thinking, no matter what side you are on. The interest on the debt, plus the annual destruction of Medicare and Medicaid (10 billion a year just for Medicare alone) kinda takes care of everything.

The winners, of course, are not so much the corps so much as the 1% who actually are the winners in all of this and are adding billions to their coffers. The only things that the Right hasn't done, so far, is start a new war with Iran but I have faith its on their agenda.

On the bright side the Left (I know <sigh>) get a shot at doing what the house is supposed to do and gets control of the money! Jackass is threatening a shutdown if he doesn't get at least 5 billion for his wall. (my fond hope is that they stop ALL legislation that is not in the interest of the nation) One can only hope that they stick to their guns, don't give him a dime, and submit a new budget that rolls back the gifts to the 1%, stops all the war stuff, and actually starts to run a congressional house based on the constitution and actually displays a bit of backbone, integrity and responsibility for the nation instead of their damned jobs (thought I would stick in a bit of wishful thinking myself).

In other words, the Dems are going to find themselves back in the driver's seat, saving the economy, rebuilding jobs, and fixing the nation. It starts on January and will, I think, extend waaaay past 2020. Hopefully, this time, they will toot the hell out of their collective horns and point out who has caused the mess on a constant basis. If the right can do it with lies then one would think the same strategy, this time with the truth, will have, at least, as good a response over time? This time, hopefully, this will actually educate the nation as to the reality of what, exactly, the Right contributes on their way out.

All this, incidentally, is based on a world class Republican spending spree and debt, rising unemployment (wait for the next report, its gonna be a duzy), interest on the debt, Medicare and Medicaid reductions starting to hit bigtime, a stock market in free fall, and a really pissed off generation of university educated victims starting to act out.

On the other hand (can't resist), the mystical left can also continue their internal, and very public, strife, bickering, whining, lack of leadership, etc. This includes the constant adoration of a very old self proclaimed socialist who proudly proclaims he is not a member of the Democratic party but thinks he should be able to run it.

Hopefully this will not happen and everybody who does not support the agenda of environmental destruction, self aggrandizement, ally insulting, personal greed, racist, and socially irresponsible will understand that there are two sides and they are on the other side and quite willing to talk to each other, work it out, and forage ahead.

Just saying.............

#309746 - 12/07/18 09:26 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1748
You could simply use the more accurate term of 'center right' JGW. It's O.K. and would be more accurate in a historic and now, thankfully, current sense. I can understand how someone from a managerial class would find comfort in a 'leftists' political positioning going no further than, say, Chuck Schumer or Nancy Pelosi but they would hardly qualify as 'left' by any edjumacated standard.
Your calling the current majority of the Democratic party left would be akin to calling the Tea Party Republicans 'nostalgic' or 'slightly old fashioned'.

By the By, I would disagree with your notion that the democratic party is the responsible party of the economy. Unless you ignore Dollar Bill Clinton deregulating the banking industry leading to the 2008 banking/ housing crises and of which Obama did everything for the banks to make them whole and very little for actual citizens under water. Just saying.

#309754 - 12/08/18 06:43 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2568
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
All these terms, like "center right" are just parsing the facts. The facts are that the nation is polarized and its all about supporting the right/Republicans/Conservatives/Libertarials or not. The divide is recognized and easily defined. In the current cases I simply don't buy fine distinctions. The simple fact is that 'right' and 'left' are binary choices.

Clinton did that in his last days in office and is not representative of the party as a whole. Here is a little history of what you are referring to:
As far as banking is concerned the Democrats were responsible for a somewhat far reaching bill to get the banks under control. The Right, however, has been chipping away on that one too, thereby adding fuel to the coming economic downturn.

I do wonder, Chunkstyle, how do you refer to yourself? Apparently you are not a Democrat so, when voting time comes do you vote for the Republicans? Voting for anything else is, basically, tossing your vote in the gutter. However, there is always the third choice and that is submit a blank ballot which, at least, will send some kind of message without actually supporting the Right nor the mythic Left. Oh, in case you wonder, this is a rhetorical question and how you have voted, or are going to vote, is YOUR business. That being the case there is no need to actually answer the question <G>

#309758 - 12/08/18 07:20 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15479
Loc: Florida
So, Chunks, why does it bother you so much that our "left" begins at center right? It's just a fact of life.
We work with it and go forward as best we can. Overall, I'm pretty optimistic about the future. We've swung about as far right as I think we can go. We're gonna win big in 2020 and I think we'll see some interesting legislation after that.
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

#309766 - 12/09/18 02:03 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1748
Political views fall on a spectrum JGW and that spectrum has been narrowed to a center right and far right status quo. Your binary choice may simplify your voting choice preference but I don't think it represents everyone. To think the current positions of the parties as being left and right denies the reality of our political history.
The reason why I dislike the center right Democratic Party being called 'left' is that it is a masquerade that neither represents current left political thought nor our countries past left political traditions. As I've stated before'that ain't no accident' and it serves a very important purpose of narrowing political thought and denying a left alternative to the benefit of the ruling status quo.
Thru a remarkable set of circumstances, it's been rekindled again in the U.K. where the previous neoliberal center right Labour Party of Tony Blair has been all but obliterated, having been given a real left alternative.
Macron now seems to have lost legitimacy as well as he tried to impose neoliberal solutions to the growing climate disaster. The outcome of that street fight TBD but it could go hard right. The previous leftist government left with very low approval ratings as it found itself very limited to enacting the changes desired by voters due to the EU rules. That outcome may go hard right as a left option was tried but failed to meet voter expectations and strategy poorly formed.

Edited by chunkstyle (12/09/18 03:21 AM)

#309781 - 12/09/18 08:12 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2568
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I am a bit confused. First there is the political spectrum thing. 'Spectrum' infers a distribution, the distribution can be wide or thin but it represents, I think, a significant number of views rather than 1 or 2. You are determined to define the Democratic party as being represented by what you refer to as the 'center right'. The Democratic party I am familiar with represents a wider 'spectrum' than that. I suspect its between the center right back to socialist in the classic meaning of that term. I also believe that there are a LOT more people in that spectrum than in the spectrum of Jackass True Believers and THAT is how the Dems did what they did in the last election.

Your insistence that the Democratic party is made up only of them on the 'right' is, obviously, just plain wrong. I guess what you are saying is that voting Democratic is akin to voting for Hitler? I just don't get it. I don't think you support the Republican/Right nor do you support the Democratic/Left (because, I guess, it doesn't exist). This being your apparent political stance what and/or who do you support?

You might also belong to that sturdy group of nay sayers determined to have their way or either vote for Jackass or just don't vote because the Dems have no candidates that you approve of.

The only other that is that you carry the black flag of anarchism as that seems to be all that is left.

This is, of course, all just plain old speculation. Just wondering.................

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