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#309809 - 12/10/18 09:20 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8734
Loc: North San Diego County
Interesting premise that the people's wishes should completely override the wisdom of the Party organization. That's pretty much what happened in the Republican primaries in 2016. If the Party hacks had been a little more aggressive, they would have knocked out Trump as unqualified. Instead the "wisdom of the people" prevailed and they elected that abomination.

Maybe pure democracy is not such a good thing when you have an "uneducated" bunch of voters. (Trump's favorites!)

Ironic too, that a socialist state would NEVER let the people elect a fascist. They might let them decide between some qualified candidates and positions, but a Donald Trump would be precluded by the Party out of hand.

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#309810 - 12/10/18 09:29 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2556
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I have said this before. There is simply no way to provide healthcare for everybody unless gov takes over the entire healthcare industry, lock, stock and barrel. Drug companies get seriously controlled, just like in the rest of the world. Healthcare device manufacturers get seriously controlled, just like the rest of the world. I can keep going with this but I think the message is clear. NO more insurance companies! NO more healthcare payed for by employers, etc. ALL healthcare covered by taxes, just like police, firemen, and libraries. This needs to be done so healthcare for profit doesn't bankrupt the country. This is why the United States, right now, as a nation, spends approximately twice as much on healthcare per capita than ANY OTHER NATION ON EARTH! We are spending over 1.5 TRILLION dollars MORE than any other nation that provides healthcare!

medicare for all is a bad dream. They tell you that it only covers 80% and its up to the sick to pay the rest. Two things wrong with that. The first is that it covers less than 80% and the second is the solution is medigap insurance and that is NOT cheap!

I think I posted something about how much it costs the VA to supply healthcare. Its substantially less than our for profit healthcare. If they were able to get more control over drug prices and devices it would cost even less! I am mentioning this because having Veterans Administration healthcare for all makes a LOT more sense (they, for instance, no only dicker with drug companies for better prices but also shop, worldwide for the best stuff for the best price). Jackass, however, is trying to privatize the VA which is causing the VA to have genuine messes not of their own making.

I apologize for this repeat but I think its important to at least talk about this stuff.


Edited by jgw (12/10/18 09:31 PM)

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#309811 - 12/10/18 10:12 PM Re: What Left? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1626
Originally Posted By: jgw
I have no idea who the tall guy is but the other is Bloomberg. I think he is the one who switched from Republican to Democrat. If he is going to run as a Democrat then he had the decency, at least, to join the Democrats unlike some who want to run as a Democrat without actually joining the Democrats which I think is crazy.

Anyway, Bloomberg, this is the guy who just gave 1.5 billion to a school so that those who couldn't afford, without massive debt, still get educated in a university. You know, the guy who gives, literally, billions of dollars to good causes. He donated, literally, tens of millions, in the last elections to support Democratic candidates. I think what you are telling me, this time, is that anybody who has the big bucks is bad, bad definition of being rich. I wonder, is it your plan to ship all them rich folk to an island someplace (seems to me there was another fella that also had that thought. You know, it started something like; "there is a spectre hanging over Europe". That one is easy, I kinda like the guy in Mexico who started the American Worker's Party a bit better. No sense not going the whole way.



Perhaps the oligarchs shouldn't take so much so that we can properly fund public services and public space. The philanthropy scam has come under some good scrutiny lately, JGW, and I would suggest having a read or two on what the whole 'benevolence' giving is all about.
We have a system that is designed to funnel money from the poor to the rich while having the poor and middle class pay for that system. That's bad JGW. Hence the rise of authoritarianism.

There is little else in your post that I would disagree with and actually support.

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#309812 - 12/10/18 10:13 PM Re: What Left? [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1626
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Interesting premise that the people's wishes should completely override the wisdom of the Party organization. That's pretty much what happened in the Republican primaries in 2016. If the Party hacks had been a little more aggressive, they would have knocked out Trump as unqualified. Instead the "wisdom of the people" prevailed and they elected that abomination.

Maybe pure democracy is not such a good thing when you have an "uneducated" bunch of voters. (Trump's favorites!)

Ironic too, that a socialist state would NEVER let the people elect a fascist. They might let them decide between some qualified candidates and positions, but a Donald Trump would be precluded by the Party out of hand.


Neoliberal fascism anyone?

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#309816 - 12/11/18 06:42 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2556
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Chunk;
I surrender! I just wished I could have figured out just what you are, other than a cipher that is really great at labels!

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#309818 - 12/11/18 07:23 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1626
JGW, surrender what?
Your entitled to your political position, I'm just making the point that the current makeup of the democratic party power structure is anything but 'Left' in an historical or contemporary sense.
Cipher? No. I'm left. Not the 'socially liberal, fiscally conservative' centrist claptrap but left. Pro union, pro public, pro democracy, anti imperialist, anti war, anti racist, etc... Unlike the current configuration of the democratic party.
I've never hid my politics JGW. I thought I'd explained my positions clearly and made my argument clear as well. It's more than possible that i haven't but who really does with posting online? 90% of the time it's comparing posting styles.

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#309819 - 12/11/18 07:48 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17019
I think, chunk, what he is saying is that he's giving up on convincing you of anything. You have a position, no information that contradicts that position is of any use in persuading you.

What I find frustrating, and I think is reflected by others, is that from a policy perspective we agree with you. What we find disagreeable is the insistence that your views on political perspectives is the only one. The response, inevitably, is to attach labels. Most of those labels are inaccurate, in my view. From your perspective, correct me if I am wrong, there is no room for compromise, and any hint of centrist thought is deemed "neoliberal" (I'm not sure you are using the term correctly - but then, neither do "neoliberals"), or fascist, or right-wing, etc., etc., etc. I, personally, find it irritating and counterproductive to discussion of substance.


Edited by NW Ponderer (12/11/18 08:05 PM)
Edit Reason: extending remarks

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#309827 - 12/12/18 01:07 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1626
It's s'all good and I accept that JGW and I may be talking past each other.
It was only an argument to say that there is no left of any significance in the Democratic Party by design. Heretical for some, others not so much.
My view is not the only immaculate view on politics. Just an opinion I'm bothering to argue and defend.

Y'all see that first ever teacher strike at a Charter School this past week?
Errr.... Wat a minute. Are you for Charter Scools or the teachers?

Just kidding!

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#309832 - 12/12/18 10:38 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1626
Two major resolutions coming from the 2017 AFL-CIO Convention:

(1) “whether candidates are elected from the Republican or Democratic Party, the interests of Wall Street have been protected and advanced, while the interests of labor and working people have generally been set back,” and (2) “the time has passed when we can passively settle for the lesser of two evils politics.”

I think the largest labor organization in the United States is done with labels as well. Perhaps the day has finally come for the Democratic Party to be rid of that old idea of unions.

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#309834 - 12/12/18 07:07 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2556
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I surrender insofar as even trying to figure out where you are, exactly, insofar as politics is concerned. You do not like the Democratic party, you really don't like the Republicans. You claim to be " Pro union, pro public, pro democracy, anti imperialist, anti war, anti racist, etc.." Then you start up with the labelling. When its all said and done I have absolutely no idea about where you actually stand. I suspect you think that you have explained it all - you have not. What you have done is, basically, leave me with the impression that you don't vote for either side and are expecting some kind of new political party that will save us all.

You have done an absolutely great job of confusion. I, on the other hand, simply give up trying to figure it all out. Seems a bit to confusing to make any sense to me. I am probably just to old to deal with the confusion.

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