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#309787 - 12/10/18 09:45 AM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8930
Loc: North San Diego County
He could also be a Russian Troll. That fits pretty well with the Russian anti-Democratic Party theme.

"You can vote for Trump, or support Bernie. As long as you don't vote for Hillary because we don't want competent US governance."

Remember, not electing Hillary played right into Putin's scheme for weakening US influence in the world. Considering all the things we have learned in the last few months, it looks like a lot of American's actions helped Putin in his quest to strengthen his Malignant Kleptocracy.

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#309788 - 12/10/18 02:24 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17182
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Stop making healthcare an employer benefit.
Medicare for all is the only logical way forward.
I couldn't agree more. From a macroeconomic standpoint, our current fetish with "employer paid" healthcare is insane. For big bidness, it is a competitive anchor weighing them down, since virtually all their competitors have some form of national healthcare, and for small business it absorbs a lot of entrepreneurial energy. My son works for a mom-and-pop business that is offering health insurance for the first time through the healthcare exchange. The employees and the business will each pay 25% of the cost, and the State will pay the rest. It's a win for everyone, really. They are mostly minimum-wageish workers who can't afford insurance on their own, but it would be even better if neither had to suck up 25% of the cost. Taxes would go up, yes, but overall costs would go down.

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#309795 - 12/10/18 05:14 PM Re: What Left? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1928
Originally Posted By: jgw
I am a bit confused. First there is the political spectrum thing. 'Spectrum' infers a distribution, the distribution can be wide or thin but it represents, I think, a significant number of views rather than 1 or 2. You are determined to define the Democratic party as being represented by what you refer to as the 'center right'. The Democratic party I am familiar with represents a wider 'spectrum' than that. I suspect its between the center right back to socialist in the classic meaning of that term. I also believe that there are a LOT more people in that spectrum than in the spectrum of Jackass True Believers and THAT is how the Dems did what they did in the last election.

Your insistence that the Democratic party is made up only of them on the 'right' is, obviously, just plain wrong. I guess what you are saying is that voting Democratic is akin to voting for Hitler?



The democratic party has shifted to the right since the time of FDR, keynesian economic consensus and the New Deal. You could say that americans have turned more center right but that would not be accurate any more than your insistance that their has been a broad distribution of political thought within the Democratic Party. Until recently, anything other than a Neoliberal Consensus was effectively neutralized.
If you don't believe there is a Neoliberal consensus then I suggest you look at the primary process of candidate selection.
Much like the Republican Party's tactic of voter suppression the DNC, DCCC and DSC have relied on candidate suppression to maintain that neoliberal consensus. There has been some very good reporting on this and, if your paying attention during the primary races in 2018, it was on full display yet again.
Republicans running as re-flagged Democrats, Steny Hoyer's vield threats to a candidate in a bar, etc etc. I've linked this reporting but, whatever. People will believe what they want and a posted link won't change any of it.
I don't mind you being comfortable with a center right alignment. What I do mind is you claiming the Democratic party, as it currently exists, is 'Left'. I'm pushing back on that by drawing distinctions between what is or has historically been considered 'left' and the positions of our current Democratic Party. It's about as annoying as the curent Republican party claiming to be the progressive political party of the past under Lincoln. The comparison, in the same way, is absurd.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/10/18 05:16 PM)

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#309797 - 12/10/18 06:19 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17182
chunk, you need to read more Keynesian literature.

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#309798 - 12/10/18 06:33 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1928
Could you be more specific NWP? What parts of it and why?

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#309800 - 12/10/18 07:36 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2633
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Chunk;
I think I am getting it. What you are saying is that there is nobody really on the left, not that there is no left just nobody is home there and now everybody is center right.

Then you went on to say that not only is the Democratic center right but that they attack folks running under the Democratic banner. I doubt the first and get some humor out of the second.

I have seen the DNC go after some candidates and not others. Normally, when that happens, they had somebody else in mind, usually somebody who has put in the time and effort and gets 'appointed'. Same thing happens on the Republican side as well. Then there is the "candidate suppression" thing. If nothing else that's a really great phrase. I have been saying, for a very long time, that one of the problems with the parties is that they tend to, sometimes, offer up candidates that don't really have the capacity to even feed themselves. That stuff comes under the heading of "sh*t happens".

I would point out, you may have missed it, that the Dems, in the last election put 39 or 40 candidates, many of which were new and female into the congressional house and a LOT more than that into state legislatures. Does this mean that all them candidates were choices made by the DNC after first purging the same, or more candidates? I guess I just don't understand it all.

I guess I will just have to go with something like; "The Democrats won the congressional house and a lot of state legislatures and, apparently, all these newly elected Dems oppose Jackass and all that's come with him. To me it sounds as if they are against the Jackass criminal organizations and, seemingly, for removing said criminal activities as soon as possible. This seems a good thing to me.

As far as the terms; 'left', 'right', etc. are concerned I couldn't care less. If you want to believe that the entire nation has decided to support the Jackass is fine with me. I don't believe that but, if you do, I wish you good luck, Merry Christmas, and a belief that I just don't buy that one. As a matter of fact I suspect you are in a kindofa lonely place but it is YOUR choice which puts you a bit ahead of the True Believers. Anyway, If you don't like 'left' how about "Folks against the Republican Righteous Right"?

Just wondering...............

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#309802 - 12/10/18 08:05 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1928
JGW,
Yes, you are correct. There has been very little representation of left wing politics since the purge in the 1950's of those political forces that brought about the New Deal consensus. To say that he current power that dominates the Democratic party today as being left just doesn't square with the historical record.
You need to look more closely at the dynamics that make up a democratic primary race vs. a republican. Offering a critique or being skeptical does not mean your taking another political parties side. I call it the way I see it and the Neoliberal, market oriented forces have kept a grip on the power, to a large extent, thru campaign financing. This was not always the case but happens to be now. To deny this is to deny the current reality of the party and also the large effort to reform the primary process since the 2016 election debacle.
No, I didn't miss the midterm election and there's a bit of good and the usual bad. There was much of the same primary rigging by the DNC and I had posted up this problem while the races were underway. You have a party apparatus running on an ability to be connected to wealth rather than offering people political solutions to their problem. If you think having half of america unable to handle an $800 dollar emergency is not a problem then you might want to consider yourself part of the problem.
We do have an embryonic left wing forming with this mid term election. A small one that is currently punching above it's weight and generating some bold policy ideas to some very big public problem. Medicare for all instead of that million moving parts monstrosity called Obamacare that remains too expensive, a green new deal, maybe we shouldn't be caging humans more than any other country on earth for a buck. Ideas like corporations paying taxes or capitalism serving society instead of society serving capitalism.
In this age of biblical inequality and rampant corporate criminality which of those options appears to be winning JGW?

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#309804 - 12/10/18 08:21 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1928
These guys JGW....
These guys are not left wing politics....
These guys will build a billionaire a free enterprise building with tax payer monies that should be going to public good.



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#309806 - 12/10/18 09:04 PM Re: What Left? [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8930
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
They are mostly minimum-wageish workers who can't afford insurance on their own

Those numbers don't jibe: Minimum wage for full-time single employees is is $14,500 per year. The Medicaid income limit is $16,643 for single men. Every minimum wage worker should be covered by Medicaid, even in states that have not expanded coverage.

There is a hole in states that have not expanded Medicaid up to the bottom limit for ACA. Those people get no Medicaid and no ACA assistance. I actually had to take some 401K money as income to reach the bottom of the ACA limit when I first retired. Then my wife and I got a total refund of everything we paid into ACA for the year.

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#309807 - 12/10/18 09:14 PM Re: What Left? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2633
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I have no idea who the tall guy is but the other is Bloomberg. I think he is the one who switched from Republican to Democrat. If he is going to run as a Democrat then he had the decency, at least, to join the Democrats unlike some who want to run as a Democrat without actually joining the Democrats which I think is crazy.

Anyway, Bloomberg, this is the guy who just gave 1.5 billion to a school so that those who couldn't afford, without massive debt, still get educated in a university. You know, the guy who gives, literally, billions of dollars to good causes. He donated, literally, tens of millions, in the last elections to support Democratic candidates. I think what you are telling me, this time, is that anybody who has the big bucks is bad, bad definition of being rich. I wonder, is it your plan to ship all them rich folk to an island someplace (seems to me there was another fella that also had that thought. You know, it started something like; "there is a spectre hanging over Europe". That one is easy, I kinda like the guy in Mexico who started the American Worker's Party a bit better. No sense not going the whole way.

Now, who is winning. Well, the big bucks are winning and they are winning because of an electorate pathetically ignorant and determined to dump in their own nest. I know, you blame it on the big bucks but I tend to believe that ignorance and lazy certainly have something to do with it. Look at the massive job the Dems did just to get their supporters to actually get off their dead butts and actually vote. This is, if nothing else, an excellent example of what is completely unnecessary. I am for mandatory voting. This business that everybody has a right not to vote is just so much crap. Our electorate has proven that they have to be forced (FORCED!) to act in their own best interest. Austrailia is the last to make voting mandadory, the world didn't end, but their process suddenly got interesting and there were adjustments made when almost everybody voted. Now its our turn.

As far as money is concerned, the solution is pretty simple. I would like to see congress try and legislate two simple things; speech is not money and money is not speech, a corporation is not a single individual. You get rid of those two and money is gone from politics. Its that simple. Let congress legislate it, ALL of congress, and then let the supremes deal with it. It just might be interesting. Given how much Obama and Jackass has been able to do with no legislation I think it might be interesting to see what happens when congress actually does something. If they can do that I would also suggest that congress is open, at least, for 6 hours a day, 5 days a week instead of 3 hours, 3 days a week. I would also suggest a law that would ban gov from paying for the travelling expenses of them in congress. If they want to go home every weekend then they get to pay the freight for that out of their own pockets.

Just saying.............

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