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#309407 - 11/15/18 09:43 PM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1776
What I admire about the republicans is that, no matter if there in the majority or the minority, they get s*** done. What you are proposing, NWP, is the tired play of compromise that we must do in order to get things done.
I have a pet theory that it's nothing more than an excuse to get nothing done so as not to upset the donor class.
Were talking about the ultra left and the ultra right now but I would like to bring it back to Overton window. That window of acceptable possibility has been moved to the right and has drifted incrementally more rightward over the decades since the 'New Democrats' have taken over the party. What is far right is what we used to call fascist, whats far left is what we called moderate progressive. Those chains have been moved down the field to the right's end zone, thanks in large part, to the embrace of neoliberal centrists policies of the New Democrats and their rolling over, genital displaying bipartisan fetish.

Your sadly mistaken if you think that the criticism of the progressive left is without merit and simply buying into the fascist fantasy narratives.
My question to you, NWP, is what has the centrist Dems done for anybody that's been worth a damn in the last 35 years?
Let's weigh whatever you come up with against the backdrop of some of the items I my list:

Deregulation of the banking industry
Deregulation of the media industry
Evisceration of food assistance for the poor (women and children here y'all)
The full pursuit of neoliberalism with all it's accompanying acceleration of wealth inequality, economic violence on communities, environmental violence on ecosystems and the destruction of organic culture.


That's off the top of my head. I haven't gotten started with the militarization of the police (wonder what that's for...), expansion of state violence in the middle east, North Africa and Latin America, the purposeful shrinking of the state authority in the face of corporate power, etc, etc...

So yeah, lets have that reality check. What are you putting up on the scales that offset this short list of New Democrat accomplishments with bipartisan support? What's stuck and not being torn down currently?






Edited by chunkstyle (11/15/18 09:45 PM)

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#309408 - 11/15/18 10:30 PM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1776

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#309409 - 11/16/18 03:44 AM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8791
Loc: North San Diego County
And nobody wins elections by making their Party smaller. Reality is that you still need to win before you can have the power to get anything done. If you throw out everybody with non-left ideas, then you lose elections. Much better to come up with positions and proposals that add to Party membership. If people resist your positions, then explain why they are worthy of support. There is a huge independent chunk of the electorate that is recruitable. You don't need to change your positions. You just need to actually talk to these folks.

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#309414 - 11/16/18 03:54 PM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1776
The Democratic party has to decide wether it wants to be a party of the much larger working class or the party of wealth accumulation and property rights. Triangulation doesn't work and has led us to where we are today.
You want votes? Propose something that has broad popular support and get behind it.
You want donor money, play it safe and triagulate, triangulate, triangulate so that nothing meaningful gets done and you watch your traditional base of support crumble.

They got the upper middle class suburbs this time.

My fear is that it's only a pause in the drift to ultra-right authoritarianism. You can't consistently win by being against something.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/16/18 03:55 PM)

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#309421 - 11/17/18 06:01 PM Re: Election Day [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15531
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The Democratic party has to decide wether it wants to be a party of the much larger working class or the party of wealth accumulation and property rights.


So what exactly is wrong with accumulating wealth and owning property?
Most all of the working class folks I know want to accumulate some wealth and own some property.

Quote:
You can't consistently win by being against something.

What exactly are Republicans for?

They are against, taxes, immigration, abortion, fair wages, and equality for all. They are against same sex marriage, government regulation, religious freedom and a free press.

That only scratches the surface...but the funny thing here is that these are all things that Democrats are in favor of....

Triangulate all you want. The Democratic party is still the party of movement and the Republicans the party of order.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#309422 - 11/17/18 06:12 PM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8791
Loc: North San Diego County
Well said! Bow

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#309425 - 11/17/18 06:32 PM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1776
Well, aside from the fact wealth accumulation is a death dive under the current system, wealth and income are two separate subjects. You can have wealth while making no income.
Then their's income that people make by trading on their time/labor.
The Neiliberal democrats have been spending most of their time appealing to the wealth accumulation set and not the income accumulation set. You might not see what the problem is, Gregor, when you get your investment dividend checks from Gregor Heavy Holdings Inc. but a heck of a lot of people don't have that benefit as their income doesn't allow them to have excess capitol to invest (can we get a minimum pay raise up in this b1tch y'all?) You can make the argument that the tax laws favor those that have wealth accumulation over those that depend on income.
Property right have been favored over the public spaces. One area under assualt has been the drive towards privatizing public education. Turning the public space into private enterprise and property. The commodifying of the public commons. For profit prisons, for profit hospitals, health care, bridges and infrastructures, air waves etc, etc. Because in neoliberal marketworld theory, it's better to trust in the markets than to have a public trust.

I can go on about how wealth accumulation accelerates the destruction of public space, causes economic violence to communities and inverts the tax structure to have the public underwrite private enterprise but you've probably heard it all by now.
Here's a good read some time ago that talks about this metamorphosis by the author of the term: Inverted Totalitarianism


Edited by chunkstyle (11/17/18 06:41 PM)

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#309426 - 11/17/18 06:48 PM Re: Election Day [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1776
The democrats are the party of symbolic opposition and have been for some time as they have decided to become a more market oriented party. The idea of moving right while punching left to bridge a supposedly broader base of support has turned out to have left them in the weakest possible position than they have been in for decades.
What movement the Democratic party has achieved compared to ground the party has given up would be a fun debate and I'm willing to have it with you if you want.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/17/18 07:00 PM)

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#309427 - 11/18/18 12:07 AM Re: Election Day [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15531
Loc: Florida
So we agree that too few people have too much of the available money. The hoarded wealth of the bourgeois, passed from generation to generation and all that.

But what have you got against the ability to accumulate it? And why should a party be against a system that lets people gain wealth?
Isn't that pretty much the American Dream?

I'd like to know what you've got against property rights rights too, and why the Democratic party should be against them.

You've got John Locke rolling over in his grave. Life Liberty and the right to own property is pretty much what the good ole usa is founded on.

We need a system that works for everyone...not just a few.
I think Bernie mighta said that a few times. But I've never heard him speak out against property rights.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#309428 - 11/18/18 12:17 AM Re: Election Day [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15531
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The democrats are the party of symbolic opposition and have been for some time as they have decided to become a more market oriented party.

If we want the Democratic Party to be something other than what it is we need to elect candidates who feel the same as us. They're out there, recently more and more of them. We, the voters, are "The Democrats". Boomers are aging out of the system, not fast enough but things are changing, never fast enough for you, Monsieur Firebrand, but they are changing.

I dunno where we boomers went wrong. We were raised by survivors of The Great Depression and WW2. We were good and decent kids who were raised well. I dunno how we screwed the pooch so bad.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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