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#327788 - 08/03/20 10:09 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Irked Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 3559
Loc: Somewhere out in left field
Obama was the best president of my lifetime (Ike forward to today). In demeanor, oratory, policy, and morality he far exceeded all his predecessors (Do we need to even mention the fact that his successor is the person with the worst demeanor, the worst speechifying of the modern age, a completely amoral man following horrible, vindictive and cruel policy (if it what he does can actually be called "policy").)

Obama got an amazing number of things completed in the four months he had a majority. Even with the majority, he actively sought Republican input for both the recovery and the ACA. In fact, much of both bills were Republican amendments.

Even without congressional majorities, he marshalled on, seeking to meet the threats of climate change, Chinese aggression, Russian aggression, and terrorism. On all fronts, no matter how much his initiatives conformed to policy previously held by Republicans, he was universally opposed by the once conservative party.

If this country continues down the road it is barreling down at full speed, history will look at Obama as not only the last great American president but the last democratically elected American president; the last president before the United States devolved into a failed state led by authoritarian nihilists willing to say or do anything to increase their own power and wealth and suppress those who oppose them.


Edited by Irked (08/03/20 11:46 PM)
Edit Reason: Slightly less clumsy sentence structure.
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#327790 - 08/03/20 10:35 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43342
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Compared to a GWBush speech or a Donald Trump speech...Obama is like buddah. smile

Also Obama didn't destroy the economy like GWBush and Trump did.

laugh
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#327793 - 08/04/20 02:08 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: jgw]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 868
I liked Obama, I disagree with some of his policies and his actions like I have with every other president in my lifetime. I do think that if Obama and the Democrats in congress had read the views and wants of the public in general when it came to the ACA, they would have put it off for a couple of years and engaged in education of the people.

Going against the will of the people, at the time they said a big no to the ACA as it took them completely out of their comfort zone which made them angry, especially independents angry which resulted in the loss of the House of Representative in 2010. These same independents which voted for Obama over McCain 52-44 and 53-45 for Democratic congressional candidates turned against Obama and the Democrats in 2010 by a 56-37 margin. From a plus 8 for Obama to a minus 19 for the democrats in 2010, a swing of 27 points. Also the Republicans didn't take over the senate until the last two years of the Obama administration. The Democrats under Harry Reid held the senate from 2009-2014.

I think Obama could have accomplished a great deal if he had listened a bit to the American public as a whole when it came to the ACA. If he had listened, the Democrats probably would have remained in charged of congress, both the house and the senate through all 8 years of his presidency. Great things awaited in my opinion, only to be lost on the fixation on health care when America as a whole was against it.

But those decisions belonged to Obama and the democrats, not me or anyone else. Obama was well liked by America as a whole regardless of his policies. When America voted, it was against or for his policies, not Obama as an individual. This time around as in 2018, people are voting more against an individual, Trump than his policies.

With both parties shrinking and independents rising, both parties better take the views, the wants and don't wants of independents more seriously than just playing or passing legislation for their base. Wave elections are happening much more than in the past caused by ignoring independents which make up 40% of the electorate today. The days when Democrats made up 45% of the electorate are long gone. Today they make up 31% if Gallup is to be believed. Independents and wave elections, 1994, then 2006, then 2010, then 2018. Prior to 1994 the last wave election was in 1948
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It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#327794 - 08/04/20 05:32 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Irked]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17309
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Obama got an amazing number of things completed in the four months he had a majority.


But then the other 7 2/3 years he sat on his hands because Republicans.

Somehow Republicans seem to get things done despite Democrats. More often than not with Democratic help.
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#327795 - 08/04/20 06:12 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17309
Loc: Florida
Quote:
if Obama and the Democrats in congress had read the views and wants of the public in general when it came to the ACA, they would have put it off for a couple of years and engaged in education of the people.


There's a lot of truth to that. Both the right and the left were against it. It went too far for conservatives and not far enough for liberals and there was never any compromise. A crappy bill got passed that nobody liked. Not a single Republican voted for it. The Supreme Court pulled its teeth and essentially nothing changed. A win for conservatives. Obama's entire reign was basically a win for conservatives and they capitalized on it when they elected Trump.

Democrats have nominated his VP, who was chosen because he was more conservative than Obama, and while we may get rid of Trump it will be another win for conservatives.

Biden is know for his ability to "work across the aisle". To compromise, to give up what liberals want in favor of what conservatives want...

You ever hear conservatives saying they need to "work across the aisle"...? They don't. They need to steamroll the opposition it's what they do and they're good at it.

I'm not sure what Democrats are good for or good at.

Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is what they are most often hailed for....
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#327796 - 08/04/20 06:16 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 868
Actually it was the last 6 years as caretaker president after a 63 seat house loss. The third most seats lost in the house in this countries history. However one looks at it, it boils down to one thing, forcing on America something they didn't want at the time, the people let the Democrats know this and they ignored America as a whole just to please their base. The average polls showed 55% against, 40% for. Because Obama and the democrats ignored how the major of Americans felt and didn't want, there was payback in November of 2010.

Obama won reelection because independents liked him as a person, not necessarily because of his policies. They distrusted Romney and viewed Romney much more negatively than Obama. The beauty contest. Charisma won. Which if you go back through history, you'll find in elections when one candidate is much more charismatic than the other, charisma wins every time.

2012 the Charismatic Obama over Romney
2008 Obama over the non-charismatic McCain
1996 The very charismatic Bill Clinton over the dour Dole.
1992 Once again charisma over the non-charismatic G.H.W. Bush.
1984 The very charismatic Reagan over Mondale
1980 Once again charisma wins, Reagan over Carter and so on.

Now being a down home boy can be an advantage as G.W. Bush and his down home style won over two statues, Gore and Kerry. As did the down home Jimmy Carter over the very bland Ford. But Carter was no match for the charismatic Reagan.


Edited by perotista (08/04/20 06:17 PM)
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It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#327799 - 08/04/20 06:52 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17309
Loc: Florida
And the charismatic playboy billionaire/reality teevee star Donald Trump over the schoolmarm charm of Hillary Clinton.

Clinton lost the 2008 primary to Obama's charisma....to tell you the truth, I wish Clinton had beat him and I wish she had beat Trump.

But charisma wins every time.

You ever notice that charismatic people, more often than not, are assh*les...?
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#327804 - 08/04/20 08:08 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 868
I was a John McCain supporter in 2008 and didn't really care who won on the Democratic side. Now I sure wouldn't call Trump charismatic. Just the opposite. More of a schoolyard bully, a spoiled brat among other things. From what I can tell, come up with, about the only reason Trump won the GOP nomination he was viewed as a fighter. A lot of republicans were really peeved at the GOP house for not stopping Obama cold, from not taking over the reigns of government, something totally impossible. I thought they were very stupid with that idea. The GOP didn't have the numbers, but that meant nothing to them. Reality had left the boat and drowned.

Beating Hillary, it was independents that did that. They sure didn't like Trump, 57% of them viewed him negatively. But they disliked Hillary even more, 70%. Questions 10 & 11.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/l37rosbwjp/econTabReport_lv.pdf

The dislike of both was so high that in the end, some 9 million independents voted against both by casting a ballot for a third party candidate. Trump certainly wasn't charismatic. Obama was, Bill Clinton was, so too Reagan. JFK perhaps the most charismatic of the lot. At least in my time. IKE wasn't really charismatic, but everybody liked IKE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va5Btg4kkUE

I miss the old TV political ads like that one. But no, Trump is/was anything but charismatic. The total opposite. He was one lucky SOB to go up against a candidate viewed as aloof and as elitist by a majority of Americans. A candidate that was lazy and ran the most inept campaign I have seen this side of G.H.W. Bush 1992 run. I think the difference is folks viewed Bush's campaign as a I don't care if I win campaign, that is until the last two weeks of the campaign when he really got into it. By that time it was too late. With Hillary, it was like she thought the election was in the bag, guaranteed. Just my opinion.


Edited by perotista (08/04/20 08:10 PM)
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#327806 - 08/04/20 11:34 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43342
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
if Obama and the Democrats in congress had read the views and wants of the public in general when it came to the ACA, they would have put it off for a couple of years and engaged in education of the people.


There's a lot of truth to that. Both the right and the left were against it. It went too far for conservatives and not far enough for liberals and there was never any compromise. A crappy bill got passed that nobody liked. Not a single Republican voted for it. The Supreme Court pulled its teeth and essentially nothing changed. A win for conservatives. Obama's entire reign was basically a win for conservatives and they capitalized on it when they elected Trump.

Democrats have nominated his VP, who was chosen because he was more conservative than Obama, and while we may get rid of Trump it will be another win for conservatives.

Biden is know for his ability to "work across the aisle". To compromise, to give up what liberals want in favor of what conservatives want...

You ever hear conservatives saying they need to "work across the aisle"...? They don't. They need to steamroll the opposition it's what they do and they're good at it.

I'm not sure what Democrats are good for or good at.

Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is what they are most often hailed for....

I always thought the BAMZ!!! was center-right. Hmm
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#327810 - 08/04/20 11:45 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10369
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Greger
You ever notice that charismatic people, more often than not, are assh*les...?

I was afraid it was just me who thought that.
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
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