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#310056 - 12/28/18 02:25 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

I would like to see a leftist elected for once and see if the corporatists can get him/her to move towards the center.


Get them into the party and pull the trigger. Chances are they will win.

If that is not the game then the thread needs to morph into a realistic discussion about how to make a third party candidate win the White House for the first time in history.


With the DNC, DCCC, DLC, DSCC, etc, working against left wing candidates it might be easier to run a third party. This wouldn't be ideal but it is the reality. The party has been run by corporations and Ivy League for so long that it views leftist politicians as a threat. At some point, more and more people are realizing they don't have a home in club democrat.
I don't think were there yet. A few more cycles of self interested policies and waffling on populist promises perhaps.
The demographics are favoring a left turn. I see no sign that the corporate smart set is willing to embrace this shift, preferring marginalizing that potential base instead.

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#310058 - 12/28/18 08:13 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
Duuuuuhhhhhhh............ okay

I might have to take back some of my pessimism. I remain guarded because it's the DNC were talking about here but it looks like a step in the right direction for once.

Wait and see...

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#310059 - 12/28/18 08:18 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14420
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle


With the DNC, DCCC, DLC, DSCC, etc, working against left wing candidates it might be easier to run a third party.


Easier...why is "easy" a criteria? It might be easy but is there any historical data that supports the possibility of a WIN?
NO, THERE ISN'T.

If there had been at least three or four third party presidential administrations in the last eighty to 100 years I could be convinced it was possible. There's zero.

We will not survive another two, three or four Republican trifectas. We won't even survive one more. We will wind up living in the Holy American Empire, ruled by a "pastor" who is actually a former jack-leg preacher turned common crook, and Dominionism will be the official state religion, liberalism will be outlawed and you will get to vote for the fascist of your choice...if you are a white Christian property owning hetero male with sufficient wealth to qualify as a voter.

Internal passports between our various polluted "sovereign states" will be permitted only if a "constitutional sheriff" clears you for passage, and your kids will be educated by theocratic revisionists.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#310060 - 12/28/18 08:21 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14420
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Duuuuuhhhhhhh............ okay

I might have to take back some of my pessimism. I remain guarded because it's the DNC were talking about here but it looks like a step in the right direction for once.

Wait and see...


This is precisely the kind of crowdfunding Bernie shocked the world with. The only remaining factor is whether or not he finally decides to join the party instead of remaining an outsider.
They've left the door open and the light on.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#310061 - 12/28/18 09:08 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
Why is declaring himself a democrat critical Jeff? There was plenty of Data that supported the notion that Sanders would have won in 2016.
No one would have predicted a busted out game show host having multiple trophy wives, a record of draft dodging, adultery and scams would be elected by evangelicals, vets and middle class boomer white guys and their wives but here we are.
You know what? The Democratic party blew it by throwing it for the establishment.
Anyhow, the Bernie vs. Clinton debate is an unwinnable war. What's amazing to me is the admission of the DNC that popular candidates might just win elections over well funded ones as Trump proved.



Edited by chunkstyle (12/28/18 11:18 PM)

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#310062 - 12/29/18 01:21 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14420
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Why is declaring himself a democrat critical Jeff?



Chunks, I'm pretty sure that you and I went over this ground more than a few times already. The two major political parties will NEVER lend support to someone who is "running as", they will only ever lend support to an actual party member, and "running as" is the equivalent of a third party, because the two major parties will always protect and defend candidates who ARE party members, and third party candidates have never won a POTUS election.

I didn't design it this way, but that is how it works.
I didn't say it was a great system, but that is the system.

Surely you remember us going over this before.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#310064 - 12/29/18 02:09 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
Yeah, I remember it. I didn't agree with that line of your reasoning then and I don't now. If it was designed that way then what kind of stupidity was it that the party didn't tell that to the Sanders camp and allowed him to run. You remember that there was also other Democratic candidates running as well, don't you?
Your argument of the Clinton grift with the party is reasonable and justifiable but doesn't square with the that overlooked fact. It does provide some kind of rational for the back room dealing between the DNC and the Clinton Campaign after it was revealed to the public.
What does the rules say about the other democratic candidates getting rooked in the 2016 race?....
I personally want to see Sanders run without bending the knee to club Dem. Make em' kick him out of the race.

Trump for the win 2020.

Let's get to the end of neoliberalisms facist inevitability. Hillary Trump. Cancer, heart attack. In the end, the results the same.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/29/18 04:51 AM)

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#310069 - 12/29/18 03:01 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14420
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
If it was designed that way then what kind of stupidity was it that the party didn't tell that to the Sanders camp and allowed him to run.


It's not like they could stop him from running...from "running as if".

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

You remember that there was also other Democratic candidates running as well, don't you?
Your argument of the Clinton grift with the party is reasonable and justifiable...


You're saying that you remember our past conversations but I wonder if you do, because you surely would remember that I took special care to emphasize my awareness of the fact that some of what they did might be illegal, and most of what they did was immoral.
So, remembering my position, you would agree that I saw it as neither reasonable nor justifiable. I only said that I understood why they reacted as they did, I wasn't surprised, only at the level to which they took it.

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

...but doesn't square with the that overlooked fact.


Well yeah, it kinda does.

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

It does provide some kind of rational for the back room dealing between the DNC and the Clinton Campaign after it was revealed to the public.
What does the rules say about the other democratic candidates getting rooked in the 2016 race?....


Pretty much the same thing. Both parties are going to select party members as potential candidates but in the end, once they have made their top picks, it becomes a beauty contest. With the Dems, that was a very distorted beauty contest. There is no dispute there.
But with Bernie, he hadn't even entered the beauty contest, not the DNC one.

Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

I personally want to see Sanders run without bending the knee to club Dem. Make em' kick him out of the race.

Trump for the win 2020.


Wow, I just don't know what to say to respond to "Trump for the win, 2020."
I'm glad that you're able to insulate yourself from the consequences of that possibility.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#310071 - 12/29/18 06:24 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
O.K. jeff,
You win. Primaries don't matter in either a presidential election nor down ballot races. It's the party apparatus that gets to pick the winner. That would include the media arm of the party as well, no?
If that is the case, and i understand your simply observing and reporting, then what does that say?
Well one thing is the Republican party would appear to be the more democratic party. They did not want Trump to be the winner but got him all the same. Nor do they interfere in down ballot races to the extent that the Democratic party has. Witness the tea party's rise.
But again, it's all stupid and nothing matters. The Democratic party has got a rule somewhere that allows that rigging to take place should there be a challenge from an "as a"? They just didn't have a rule that barred Sanders entry into the presidential primary to begin with?
I'm glad the party apparatus gets to pick the winners for us. Now I know that my vote as well as yours doesn't count after all. The 2016 primary has taught a great many people a lesson in how ineffectual your voting will be should it not correspond to the parties pre-selected winner of the no-contest primary. Primaries are simply televised and reported publicity campaigns with the outcome predetermined by the party apparatus.

You think you've insulated yourself from Neoliberalism?
Trump has sped up the progression is all. Clinton was another mile marker on our way to a Trump like figure. We have long ago abandoned a project of 'We' to a dystopian reality of 'Me' society. Trump is the perfect distillation of a 'Me' authoritarian. Where else was neoliberalism going to go but here?


Edited by chunkstyle (12/29/18 06:31 PM)

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#310072 - 12/29/18 06:39 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
Jim Webb, Martin O'Malley, Lincoln Chafee and Lawrence Lessig were all in on the fix, too?

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