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#310189 - 01/04/19 05:31 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15365
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Well Jeff I'm not sure what to make of it but a bespeckled sweaty faced transplant intellectual jew that is now a sentimental old fool kinda feels like trolling to a Sanders supporter but if that wasen't your intention then I apologize. Dog whistling?

It's amazing how relentless you are in condemning Sanders for his refusal to bend the knee or failing to remake the Democratic party in his own image.
No, it's not his responsibility. I don't even know what that means or what that would look like. Would he have to buy it with his 3oo million? Does he go Oprah with a 'you have a new car and YOU have a new car!'. Tell me what making the Democratic party a bitch looks like or mean.
It does divert coversation away from Sanders political position that's challenged the governing power for decades though. I don't know if that's your intention or not. Should any outside challenger remake a political party before running "as a"?

Franklin was a class traitor. A rare thing in politics from the top. He understood his people well and, I believe, knew how to manage them better than any democrat since. Opportunities were unique to his time but you could easily compare his administration to Obama's and draw your own comparison. Franklin didn't have a Gietner in his cabinet and hated Harvard men. It's remarkable how much he didn't allow bankers to craft economic policy. Not so with Obama.

Again, this centrist vs. socialist posting war is futile and can't be won. I really don't understand where your coming from with all the qualifiers you insist on from Sanders. You seldom talk of his record or ideas preferring credentialing and qualifying.




Fer chrissakes, as long as you continue to portray me as a centrist or a Hillary guy, there is no way you'll understand what I am getting at. Clearly if you insist that I am a centrist, or a neoliberal, or a Hillary supporter, everything I'm talking about won't make sense to you. It's as if you're somehow reading a heavily redacted version of my posts and responses, thus every time I talk about how I admire Bernie's ideas, you see giant black Sharpie squares covering my words.

Let me know if you can log on to the REAL Capitol Hill Blue page, because that censorship doohickey is making it impossible for me to communicate my ideas to you.

Or...is it just that you're averse to the notion that I simply am convinced that Bernie took the worst possible route? I can't tell if it's that or you're reading a Chinese version of the site with heavy censorship going on.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#310192 - 01/04/19 01:56 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2346
Ok Jeff, your a Sanders supporter and it's mainly styles of campaigning were disagreeing about.
If I understand you correctly, Sanders needed to make the party his Bitch for him to be the winner of 2016. Is that a correct assessment?
You've also, if not condoned the Clinton/DNC grift,dismissed it as a more or less 'hey, wadja expect? Bernie's not a democrat so alls fair... Correct?
Now there's a final analysis by you of Sanders political career starting from his mild man mannered youth in the rusticated hills of Vermont to his eventual nonconformist golden years resulting in his sentimental old fool status. Maybe I'm dense (and it wouldn't be the first time) but is this irony?
I'm not sure what it's for but my take away was Sanders made the critical flaw of not declaring himself a Democrat, remaking the party in his own image, then capping that accomplishment by running for President? Is that a fair summary or was the intention irony?

We could engage in that type of conversation or we could instead discuss and debate what he's actually doing. Now. As opposed to a mythical 'shoulda done'.
Like getting concessions out of multinationals to pay their U.S. Workers a living wage.
Hosting live video conferences on climate change, health care.
Creating a political campaign funding apparatus out of his own presidential campaign. 'Our Revolution'.
Hosting an international left wing convention to begin organizing on an international scale leftist ideas and opportunities. Recognizing the far right is way ahead here.
Introducing legislation for the passage of Medicare for all and making it a central feature in the mid terms.

Frankly, if you've been discussing these activities as well as others I've omitted and I didn't notice you have the, again, my apologies.
If your 'bye Bernie' was in the style of Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal, I didn't catch it. All I keep reading is what Sanders should have done.


Edited by chunkstyle (01/04/19 02:12 PM)

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#310196 - 01/04/19 06:06 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15365
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

We could engage in that type of conversation or we could instead discuss and debate what he's actually doing. Now. As opposed to a mythical 'shoulda done'.
Like getting concessions out of multinationals to pay their U.S. Workers a living wage.
Hosting live video conferences on climate change, health care.
Creating a political campaign funding apparatus out of his own presidential campaign. 'Our Revolution'.
Hosting an international left wing convention to begin organizing on an international scale leftist ideas and opportunities. Recognizing the far right is way ahead here.
Introducing legislation for the passage of Medicare for all and making it a central feature in the mid terms.

Frankly, if you've been discussing these activities as well as others I've omitted and I didn't notice you have the, again, my apologies.
If your 'bye Bernie' was in the style of Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal, I didn't catch it. All I keep reading is what Sanders should have done.


I'm all for having the kind of conversation that illuminates what he HAS been doing since 2016 because (A) the man is not stupid, and (B) he has indeed been VERY busy.
And I've been watching, and applauding.

Our Revolution opened its doors and turned on the lights immediately after the 2016 debacle. And so far it has helped something like 100 or more candidates if you include all the down-line people in state and local politics. There may be even more that I wasn't aware of, but the point is, Our Revolution has been very busy.
More applause.

Yes Chunk, my ONLY issue is that the decision to stay outside the party was a poor judgment call, nothing else. I too thought the odds might be in his favor at the beginning but I too saw what the DNC did, and it's not a case of "what'd ya expect" as much as it is a case of (for me anyway) "Sigh, the more things change, the more they stay the same...or get worse".
I really had hoped that his candidacy would spark some tidal forces in the DNC and forced a deeper look at their rules. But as you pointed out, they'd already crowned Hillz as the Golden One before Bernie even announced and they'd already made up their minds.

Look at that bitch Debbie Wasserman Schultz. For me, just looking at who and what she is made me realize that Bernie was screwed, and there wasn't a damn thing anyone could do about it.

Believe me, both Karen and I were rooting for him all the way to the bitter end. I am only making that "sentimental old fool" comment because I'm still in shock that his own electoral apparatus wasn't out ahead of all this.
You have to have one of those close friends who is willing to tell you what you do not want to hear, and those close individuals should have told Bernie that running as an outsider would never force the DNC internal apparatus to move once Hillz had been crowned.

So, I am forced to come to that conclusion because it appears that Bernie took a very dangerous gamble. And for what? A label??

I don't know, Chunk...I just don't know and I don't understand.
But believe me, I am not a Hillary supporter, not for POTUS anyway.
I would have viewed her election (had she won) as "a survivable event" and as a "mediocre presidency" at best...better than Trump but not by much.

To paraphrase P.J. O'Rourke:
"Hillary is the second worst thing that could happen to this country."
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#310201 - 01/04/19 09:54 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9479
Loc: North San Diego County
Interesting article about Elizabeth Warren's DNA test kerfluffle:

Mainstream Media Is Blowing Its Coverage Of Elizabeth Warren’s DNA Test

It looks like maybe one Warren critic raised a stink about it, and every mainstream press article quotes him and a lot of Republicans who are piling on. But funny thing: Nobody bothered to ask any Native People chiefs or political leaders! They all pretty much support Warren because she has been so supportive of tribal interests in her career. Most of them are proud of their heritage and honor anyone who discovers their own Native ancestry.

I bet the only real objection anybody has to DNA comes from tribes that are kicking people out so the can boost their casino checks! They are afraid that DNA tests could admit more people to their tribe, but of course Warren is NOT claiming that at all. And now, because her test backs up her stories about her family history, it just makes all of Trump's mocking horribly racist!

Personally, I think her face does show some Native ancestry, but I'm quite familiar with mixed-race people's appearances. (Because I am one, and I'm married to one. smile )

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#310234 - 01/07/19 05:37 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2346
Ok Jeff,
Just to show I'm not a Bernie fanatic, here's a very good article that has some excellent points to argue about his run in 2016 and likely 2020.
Still, all in all, hey may be the best of the barrel which may see the party go the way if the Whigs (as has been perpetually predicted for the Republican Party).
I can easily see a repeat if 2016 and all the hijinks leading to an alienated left not bothering to show up to vote.
Time will tell if we make it that far.

"As the MPP’s Nick Brana noted right after the 2018 mid-term elections, the contests ought to have been “a serious wake-up call for progressives” who dream of gaining power by taking over the Democratic Party. By Brana’s account, “The blue wave [was] a corporate wave that…swept in the same kind of Democratic politicians that drove working people into Donald Trump’s arms after eight years of Obama. When Democrats busy themselves serving the wealthy again, the result will be an even sharper lurch to the authoritarian right."

If Bernie runs.


Edited by chunkstyle (01/07/19 05:52 AM)

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#310237 - 01/07/19 06:12 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16457
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I'm not a Bernie fanatic


No, you're a socialist, even Bernie is not really far enough left for you. I sympathize, I just don't see big social changes coming anytime soon or major rule or strategy changes within the Democratic Party to become more inclusive of the socialist agenda.

It's what I like to think of as reality.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#310241 - 01/07/19 08:14 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2346
Uhhhh O.K.,
Who's saying the Democrats are going to be embracing anything left of their current corporate positioning? I think I've already predicted a scenario where it's highly likely the Democratic Party will further alienate it's left and may lead to a split. My hope is that it does and is necessary for there to ba a space to open up and we have a real debate as the elections are getting scheduled into the time slots. Kinda already begun. Buckle up!
Over the last three years I'd be hard put to say anyone here has had a firm grip on what the emerging realities were going to be, including myself and your cracked crystal ball Gregor.



Edited by chunkstyle (01/07/19 08:17 PM)

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#310243 - 01/08/19 05:34 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16457
Loc: Florida
Certainly no one predicted a Trump win in 2016.
Except maybe rporter314.

We'll see how me and my cracked crystal ball do on this Beto prediction.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#310272 - 01/09/19 03:27 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2346
Duly noted. You support the guy who supports the idea of supporting something.

grin

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#310273 - 01/09/19 05:35 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16457
Loc: Florida
I don't necessarily support Beto. I just think he has an excellent chance of winning if he chooses to run.

There is no candidate, right, left, or center who I believe can accomplish anything of note. I will support and vote for whomever gets the Democratic nomination.

Kamala Harris, Sherrod Brown, and Elizabeth Warren are all okay by me.
Biden and Sanders not so much. Julian Castro and that black mayor from New Jersey who used to play ball or something need not apply.

It's all about charisma. Beto has it.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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