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#310376 - 01/15/19 04:35 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17092

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#310379 - 01/15/19 06:46 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1720
"But among Democratic activists, the debates over the Green New Deal tend to mirror long-running debates over the value of pragmatism and incrementalism versus idealism and radicalism."

Oh? It is?
Honestly, what is the purpose of Grunwald's article? Politico has been on a tear against any high profile leftists for awhile now and the only takeaway from it seems to be more centrist fetishizing of incrementalism is preferable to any bold ideas that can capture the public imagination.
It also seems to be speaking to a select class of people that hold that view. My guess is their real world view from their house is a pleasant one that can afford the incremental pace and narrow benefits of what they are promoting by this article.

Grunwald's case seems built on the past events from Obama's failure to get his stimulus package thru both houses with his own attached 'green deal' component without pleasing a few hold out democrats and republicans. So now it's bad cuz you might not get stuff passed because of some previous administrations desire for consensus over expediency.

I won't bother to, again, point out how the far right got a very unpopular rich guy tax break thru. That would be like saying there's something lacking with centrists ability to put up numbers.

Obama's not President anymore and maybe a Green New Deal that has a decent paying job component would have more direct and understandable benefits to voters than moronic tax brakes to wealthy people so they can buy a Tesla or slap up some panels on their houses. That was a recipe for class resentments and helps to further alienate the horseless.

People would love jobs that are meaningful and pay decent rather than renting out rooms to strangers in the house their parents may have left them or living in their cars with an Uber gig. A lot of people will. That also means votes on a proposal that has broad popular support. That's a political weapon to be harnessed. So why do centrists always want to take it over and breal it off for their own class?

Here's another concept that's actually been around longer than Obama.
Ecosocialism

You can jump to 15:30 mark where Wolf interviews his guest on the subject.


Edited by chunkstyle (01/15/19 06:52 PM)

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#310384 - 01/15/19 08:15 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2567
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I read the site you sent. Pretty interesting. The message to me was clear - The Dems do an incredibly bad job communicating with folks. They just do a really bad job. I have been whining about this for years. Obama, for instance, never really tooted his own horn. The Republicans, on the other hand, do, and its worked for them.

Perhaps the solution is to have the Dems get schooled in horn tooting?

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#310451 - 01/18/19 10:20 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2567
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The United States was setup so that the majority would rule and run it all. As far as I know the majority, in the end, are probably closer to the middle then far off in the woods, ie. socialists, communists, crazies (both sides), nazis, anarchists, color supremists (white, green, black, blue, etc) and fascists. Hammering 'centrists', I think, means that the majority is getting hammered. This is, in the long run, not a real good idea?

I was talking to somebody the other day and he told me that somebody pointed out that all the crazies were, at one point, crazies. Now, with social mediums they all have the ability to talk to one another and join up. The result is that they now have a voice and, so far, have been pounding all of us with their poison. I have no idea what can be done and suspect the answer is "nothing". It just means that those of us not joining up with the crazies are going to have to stand up and be counted before we get, literally, run over by crazies!

Since there are no thoughts on this I might add that the ability of crazies, through media, to talk and organize. One result was the white supremacist marches. This is, I suspect, true with other groups also, such as the anarchists. Whilst my example tend to deal with fringes on the right I also believe that exactly the same thing is happening on the left. The difference is that them on the right seem to be quite willing to march under the Republican flag whilst the fringe groups on the left don't seem to understand that, in their isolated pride, they are quite willing to split, disparage, and generally work as hard as they can to blow up the Democratic party and them that are the supposed leaders of said party seem blind to it all.

As usual - I wish us all good luck!


Edited by jgw (01/20/19 09:15 PM)

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#310799 - 02/07/19 07:40 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1720

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#310836 - 02/10/19 12:21 AM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   happy

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14303
Loc: Whittier, California
Let's not forget that this is not a bill aimed at becoming law, it's a set of principles, guidelines and goals. Some of it is unrealistic, some of it is realistic but too much overreach and some is just what the doctor ordered. And all of it is sort of "first draft" but hey, you gotta start somewhere.

In the meantime, this is making R heads explode, gotta love it!

_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#310847 - 02/10/19 10:14 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2567
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The green new deal is setting out the Democratic house's plan to deal with the environment and other things. Its not a law but a their plan for the nation. I think its a great start. I have some disagreements, some agreement and some neutrality but, at least, it sets things up! This is better than the republicans have done, for instance. They don' tell nobody a damned thing, pass their legislation in the middle of the night and seem quite confident that the opposition won't say, or do, a damned thing (unfortunately they are, in this regard, pretty much right).

Anyway, I would point out that our system was never setup for one side to get everything they want. Many of the problems we have are based on this simple fact. THEIR PLAN (founders) was to believe that most elected have the interest of the nation at heart. This being the case, and it being understood that there would be two sides to just about everything, they figured that, in the end, with both sides stating where they stand that there should be some middle ground to move forward. Since neither side would get everything they wanted the results would be stuff that both sides could agree on. That's how its supposed to work!

Our current problem is that the Republicans embraced the Gingrich plan, ie. do not give an inch on anything - its all or nothing! When he expressed this it was a subject of some ridicule in that could never happen. At that point in time the thought was that everybody had voting rights, everybody had the nation at heart, everybody was talking to everybody else, congress had civilized rules in place that were observed by all, etc. Things, however, have changed. The sides don't even talk, the voting public seem to be stuck on both sides and, apparently, hate each other, "my way or the highway is the rule", etc. The Democrats now seem to be embracing their own version of the Gingrich plan.

All that being said I really do think the green new deal is a great effort at what one side wants. I would hope that the Republicans could at least read it and, instead of wailing death, destruction, and bankruptcy, try to examine the problems and solutions put forward and respond with some kind of civilized response instead of all the claim that it will destroy the nation. The problems listed, for instance, are very real and are backed by reality and science.

One last. I think, pretty soon, the two sides are going to morph and the sides will be congress vs administration. My hope is that will happen sooner rather than later and that the congress grows enough spine to win, start talking to each other, and actually start legislating rather than either being silent or kissing the ring of the dear leader. (had to add a little wishful thinking just for the heck of it)

Could go on and on about this but enough, I think...........

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#310854 - 02/11/19 06:00 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17092
I think that the Green New Deal is winning. What is everyone talking about? Isn't that really the point, and how things work now? You have something to shoot for, and at, but we're now debating the elements: Jobs, Infrastructure, taxation. Like the ACA before it, the arguments are now about not what we can do, but how we get there. When we talk about "Medicare for all" - we're past arguing whether healthcare is a right, people now believe it is, but how to implement it. The Green New Deal will be our blueprint for future discussions, not "the wall" and immigration. Trump's day has passed.

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#310858 - 02/11/19 07:26 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2567
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
You may well be right! I have not read it through but, I suspect, there are one or two really left wing things like the living wage, working or not, thing. I actually think we will get there but not yet. Give the continuous growth of homelessness, robotamization (new word!), unemployment, etc. Gov will have 2 choices, kill 'em all, or accept the simple fact of a permanent underclass. Underclass will win and it will take something like the living wage to keep them out of the streets.

I also believe that there is going to be a LOT more of them than us.

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#310860 - 02/11/19 07:41 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8773
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
I also believe that there is going to be a LOT more of them than us.


And at some point we probably will become "them". This lack of foresight is characteristic of people deciding they don't need health insurance, retirement savings, etc. I think it's really because we want to deny our own mortality. We may be fine now, but someday we will almost all be too sick to work, and certainly all will die. The folly of conservatism is to think we will never need help, when actually that is the natural order of things.

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