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#310242 - 01/08/19 04:21 AM The Green New Deal, explained
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16814
The Green New Deal, explained (Vox). This is a lengthy piece, but really explains the genesis and guts of the "Green New Deal". The short form: 1) The plan must decarbonize the economy; 2) The plan must include a federal jobs guarantee and large-scale public investments; and, 3) The plan must include a just transition.

Of course, the first objection always is, "we can't afford it" which is based upon a false premise. I
Quote:
The first and most persistent question facing any social reform in the US is how it will pay for itself. The right has spent more than half a century in the US waging a propaganda campaign intended to convince Americans of a few key things: 1) the federal budget must be balanced, with every dollar spent “paid for” with a dollar of revenue raised, lest inflation destroy us all; 2) taxes are high and burdensome and any effort to raise taxes is, de facto, bad; 3) government is incompetent and its spending is always wasteful; and 4) America is broke, in debt, with crippling liabilities coming due soon.

To be clear, all four are false. They are pernicious myths, motivated by the desire to prevent progressive social reform. They are, to use a technical term, bullshit.
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#310244 - 01/08/19 09:48 AM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9071
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Quote:
There is immense potential energy in the GND, a concentration of social attention and intensity. But converting that heat to power — to real results on the ground — will involve a great deal of political and policy engineering, almost all of which lies ahead.

We are putting real results on the ground. The challenge is to get the GND activists to recognize it. I have seen this pattern too many times where neophytes, full of passion but lacking in knowledge and experience, lead right on past the solutions that they seek.
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#310245 - 01/08/19 11:26 AM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16814
The main thing the Green New Deal gets right is giving a pithy, easy to understand label to a set of ideas. People (voters) need easy to understand concepts to get behind (like "me too", "black lives matter", or "the wall"). What GND does is provide, I think, an umbrella to fit these concepts under. The difficulty will be translating big ideas into concrete policies, much as Occupy failed to do. It's an evolution, not a revolution, but the power behind it IS revolutionary.

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#310247 - 01/08/19 03:25 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1594
Another article from the Stone interviewing a co-founder of the 'Sunrise Movement'. I like the fact that the groups co-founder is able to speak for themselves on who they are and where they've come from.
I'm suprised Logs that you would be pessimistic about this uptick in enthusiasm and support coming from a new emergent political force. The IPCC report seemed to be a call to the ramparts and these kids are responding to this as well as previous reports outlining the deadly seriousness of their futures. I would think you'd welcome their political energy and raising the issues in the public conscience. They may be neophytes but they are very much invested in the outcomes of the looming impacts and how it will effect their lives. I think that alone buy's them a seat at the table, or should. One thing's for sure, the entombed older generation and their political representatives are not moving a what would sem to be the speed necessary to meet this challenge. And why should they? It won't hit them (Pelosi, Steney Hoyer, etc..) and offends their donors.
Stone Interview


Edited by chunkstyle (01/08/19 04:13 PM)

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#310252 - 01/08/19 08:02 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9071
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I do like their enthusiasm and political energy, my concern is how to get them to understand that lots of people are working on this stuff - the solutions are on the shelf. But invariably, all the support goes to things like new technologies for energy production and "sexy" things. Conservation and a change of culture are what is most needed. Conversion of liabilities into assets.

I am hoping to capitalize on the burst of energy to get my Congressional delegation to back our established but nascent solutions that are actually in the demo/pilot stage and not go off chasing rainbows.
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#310271 - 01/09/19 01:41 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1594
I thought the referenced Vox article described their being a committee to 'corral' all the available evidence and scientific testimony. I don't think this is 'sexy stuff' approach Logs.
On the other hand what has the party elders done recently? Vaguely committed to rejoining the noncommittal Paris Treaty. Appointing a coal Democrat to Energy committee. Appoint a real estate funded developer backed congresswoman from Florida on a neutered congressional subcommittee.
Which would you rather make your bio-char efficacy argument too. Youthful energy that recognizes the existential threat for near term organized human existence and have moved the issue to the national stage where it should be or geriatrics that have no stake in their decisions outcomes and are indebted to a system that runs on consumer capitalism? The very system that defines them and their world views.
Or in the words of our esteemed senate minority leader Charles Schumer:

"Mr. President....tear down these gas prices!"

Just sayin...

I'm totally down with you on changing the culture of disposable consumption and wasting energy, Logs. Something any parent/grandparent that went thru the depression would understand just from the practical, economically survivable benefits.
If biochar has efficacy with the triple bottom line benefits you were touting Logs, wouldn't that be enough to sell the practice and the related gear without government assistance?

What would you like to be considered in this evolving green new deal? Very curious.



Edited by chunkstyle (01/09/19 03:25 PM)

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#310276 - 01/09/19 09:25 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16814
As logT well knows, there are current beneficiaries of the status quo that will fight like hell to keep their slice of the pie and squash any potential competition before it gains ground. So far his group has done well to keep the existence of their competitive technology below the radar until it has enough data/support to be inevitable. The pilot projects at the university are exactly how new technologies enter the mainstream. (I say "new," although the concept has been around so long, because how they are using it is unique and exciting).

Getting the attention of some of those of those new legislators (some from New Mexico!) could be the next step to expanding their footprint. It is clearly the kind of work the Green New Deal is intended to foster.

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#310279 - 01/10/19 12:22 AM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9071
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I am excited by the Green New Deal, but as I begin to engage with it I am seeing the same old patterns that I have seen a dozen times. I have to chalk my pessimism up to a manifestation of human nature that may be at the root of our shortcomings as a species - greed and ego.

The ego part has to do with what people are willing to consider. I have encountered no end of obstacles from "petty bureaucrats" and activists who fall into the mindset that because of their position they have superior powers of intelligence and authority and have developed such a fixed concept of what needs to be done that no innovative ideas can penetrate their reality - yet they are the gatekeepers for what is allowed to happen. One of the major examples of this is related to PV electricity production. Don't get me wrong, I like PV, but it is the 'one and only' for many activists and all other energy concepts are not only ignored but usually argued against as if there is only room for one solution. For instance, we have a successful and prominent regional group called New Energy Economy. About a year ago they began a campaign called 100% Renewables. I attended a local roadshow for it and pressed the point that there are many kinds of renewable energy and it would help the campaign to be broad based. I pitched cellulose insulation from locally recycled cardboard, improved integrated energy management systems for buildings, and of course biochar+energy systems. These are all things that we do and we can (and do) reduce building energy demands by 75% with the first two, and heat buildings while making money and sequestering carbon. Those things need to be done before engineering a PV system as there is no point in spending more than is needed... thud. So I suggested that the only burden that my renewable options would put on their organization is for them to give us space and a link on their pretty good website... thud. As of today they are raising millions to fight coal-fired power plants and they have completely forgotten anything that I told them, and don't reply to my emails.

On the greed side, what NWP referred to is definitely a factor and we have stayed under the radar - whether mostly by accident or intent is debatable. I do take issue with the idea that universities are the primary source for innovation. Here's an example of that: we have developed a continuous process pyrolyzer that has been designed to integrate into the real world constraints of rural forestry settings. The 'community system' is much bigger than just the equipment - it involves a cradle to cradle integration of forest management, existing small wood products harvesting and processing operations, community energy needs, and community use for the biochar. We built a prototype lab scale unit for NM State University to use in research on developing a char optimized for the filtration of an aquifer that was polluted by Apollo Mission rocket fuel spills. A few months ago I saw a national news article that Cornell University just unveiled a competing unit of about the same capacity that they developed over five years with a $5 million grant. The difference? Theirs would fill a semi trailer - I could haul three of ours in a pickup truck - and ours cost $25,000. What do you think the Cornell folks will do when they find out how badly they have fared against some guys working in a barn in New Mexico?

The lesson there is that money and prestige attracts the money and exposure. I would like to see an enlightened Green New Deal that has the wisdom to cut through the horseshit and get the support to the genuine grassroots problem solvers. The trouble is, the folks who understand this and have the experience and vision are not the politicians, the bureaucrats, the successful activists, or associated with the monied class.

So I am at once excited and depressed by the sparking Green new Deal movement.
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"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#310280 - 01/10/19 04:13 AM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1594
It would be nice to think of the problem in larger terms than what pop culture has imagined. Your right though.
I almost hate to use the word holistic because it gets used do much but it will take a 'all of the above' approach with the largest payback at lowest cost going first, IMO.
Instead of opting out of using straws, I'm told that food waste is the second biggest payback activity we could do to draw down atmospheric CO2. I was raised to not wast food but I admit I have not always been good about it. I've since become militant.
For me it's pretty simple. Lower your carbon footprint as fast and cheap as you can. I hope that's what happens but I share your pessimism. It seems like it takes hard sustained knocks before people change their world view. By then it might be to baked in the late.
Still, this new effort seems to be more than just international treaty or tax incentives for those that can afford it and moves it into the realm of possibilities up and down the line. At least it's moving the needle ever do slightly in the right direction.


Edited by chunkstyle (01/10/19 04:15 AM)

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#310281 - 01/10/19 04:27 AM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Ink Stained

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41348
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


70% marginal tax rate on the rich making over $10m a year? Yes, please. smile
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