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#314753 - 09/03/19 07:14 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17092
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
If you were as smart as you are condescending you would be the smartest man in the world.
grin
Thanks for recognizing it. wink

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#314754 - 09/03/19 07:19 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9449
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Actually, Hayrack made a classic remark of condescension! So he knows whereof he speaks...
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#314757 - 09/03/19 10:05 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   happy

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14303
Loc: Whittier, California
Quote:
"...preferring "constitutional republic" to "representative democracy", as if they were different things."


And they are NOT "two different things" no matter how loudly anyone protests to the contrary. We elect our representatives and our POTUS (and sheriffs, judges, even dog catchers) in a democratic fashion.
We uphold democratic principles like freedom of speech, security in our persons and personal effects, prohibition against self-incrimination at trial, no state sponsored religions, and much more.

We ARE a democracy, a representative democracy enshrined in a constitutional republic. The two are neither mutually exclusive nor detrimental to each other, and athenian direct democracy is ancient history, tried once 2500 years ago.
So the only people who keep harkening back to such an old chestnut are people who are hostile to democracy.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#314763 - 09/03/19 11:40 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1596
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
[quote=Senator Hatrack]To have a good discussion an apology for even thinking that my conservatism is in any way similar to the southern Democrat conservatives who wanted to bring back slavery or supported segregation. I have a website 272-words.com. The name of the website comes from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, which is 272 words long. Someone who is a Lincoln fan like I am would not be a southern Democrat Conservative or a supporter of segregation. Those southern Democrat conservatives were very helpful in getting FDR's New Deal programs passed by Congress. That leaves the very odious stain of segregation on the New Deal.
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Okay, that's a start. Please explain how your conservatism is different.

I am a huge Lincoln fan, too. He was the first good Republican, but not the last. But they have become awfully rare...
I am a member of the Republican Party for the lack of better one. Ideology is not important to the two major political parties. Their reason for existence is to win elections, legally if possible and illegally as long as they don't get caught.

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Go back, again, and read the sentences you are responding to critically. I didn't say you were an unreformed segregationist, or anything like that. What I said was
Quote:
Much of what you are espousing follows, faithfully, the tenets of "Lost Cause" mythology. I don't know if that is deliberate, or just a consequence of being rabidly "conservative" in your viewpoint, but it is not realistic or consistent with where the country is, now, or has been for over a century.
The paths are parallel. I explicitly did not say they were the same thing.
The lost Cause was lost before Fort Sumter. When those in the southern states quoted the Anti-Federalists, who were the real Federalists, they were talking about how our Constitution was both a federal and a national one. The federal part was where the state government was in control of what happened in their state. The national part was when the central government was in charge, it was in charge of foreign relations and related matters but very little else.

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
My point, really, is that the United States before, and after, the Civil War was and is a very different country than at the time of its founding. The "Lost Cause" mythology pretends that the war was about "states' rights", rather than slavery, to give it a "noble" feel. Adherents spend a good deal of time selectively quoting (anti-federalist) founders about how the central government is "limited" and real power remains with the individual States - when that has not been the case since 1790, or 1800 (consider the Louisiana purchase), or 1812, or 1846, or 1860... but that reality was made explicit with the 13th-15th Amendments. So, the desire to "go back" to the "good old days" is based upon something that never really existed.

Those supporters of the Lost Cause twisted (hijacked) the idea of states rights to support their economic system that was based on slavery. In doing so they rejected the idea that all men are created equal. (Slavery a Positive Good by John C. Calhoun) That rejection started shortly after Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin and that crop became "King Cotton." It became set in stone after Calhoun's speech*. Because picking cotton was a very difficult job the need for slaves dramatically increased. What I seek is a return to the days when our Constitution was both a federal and a national one while remaining true to the idea that all men are created equal.
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It is that yearning for a past that doesn't exist that creates what I consider the parallels between the "lost cause" and "libertarian"/"conservative" arguments. The labels are particularly instructive - preferring "constitutional republic" to "representative democracy", as if they were different things; identifying as "classical liberal" instead of "conservative". As is the argumentation - pretending that "the founders" were not motivated to create a strong central government, while ignoring the Supremacy clause and its implications (and all of the federalists among the founders); arguing that a "small government" was their goal, but ignoring the growth of the government from its inception. Federal Government Growth Before the New Deal (Foundation for Economic Education). The nation's population is 100 times what it was in 1790 and the land mass has more than tripled. How small a government can regulate such a situation?
A libertarian is not a conservative. They might sound like one but what they are is Southern Apologists. The libertarians have, thanks to Ron Paul, appropriated the label of conservative. Our Founders were split on how big our government should be. The Federalists wanted a strong central government as put forth by the Virginia Plan. The Anti-Federalists didn't and they proposed the New Jersey Plan. Their disagreement was settled by the Connecticut Compromise which made our Constitution a federal and a national one. The Federalists didn't get the strong central government they wanted and the Anti-Federalists didn't get the mild revision of the Articles of Confederation that they wanted. Which means when it first went into operation we had a small limited government. It has grown due to the fact of human nature that people lust after power. A return to the small limited government we once had is indeed impossible. It is for the reasons you mentioned. What I advocate is to reduce the size of our government as mush as is possible. Return our government to being a Constitution that is both federal and national instead of the predominately national one we now have.
*Here in Minneapolis, MN there is a lake named after John C. Calhoun. Ironically the neighborhood it is located in is a very liberal one, as is the city of Minneapolis.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314764 - 09/04/19 12:00 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3859
Loc: Eugene, OR
So I am still lurking out here even if I often ask myself why.

Great job Hat-rack... even if I might deduce that the mercury left behind on the hat-racks from the previous mad-hatters “liberal" use of mercury before you has indeed had a substantial residual effect upon your dear and precious mind.

Stick with it son, and if repeated often enough even you might end up truly believing your meandering drivel.
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#314768 - 09/04/19 12:50 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Ken Condon]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1596
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
So I am still lurking out here even if I often ask myself why.

Great job Hat-rack... even if I might deduce that the mercury left behind on the hat-racks from the previous mad-hatters “liberal" use of mercury before you has indeed had a substantial residual effect upon your dear and precious mind.

Stick with it son, and if repeated often enough even you might end up truly believing your meandering drivel.


Thank you Ken for showing that reading and replying to your future comments is something I shall avoid. I shall avoid them because your first comment to me is naught but gratuitous insult. A comment completely lacking in substance.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314799 - 09/04/19 02:34 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9449
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I made a delightful discovery this evening, an old post of Logtroll’s from many years ago, offering a bit of advice about debating a certain legendary Grecian Classical Liberal who once haunted these environs.

Quote:
Oh, my, Spag! I fear that you are falling into He Who Shall Never Make A Point's trap. Your assumption about what the point is will always be wrong, and it will now be your fault for making it.

Do you know the old children's story about the tarbaby? Some will say that is a racist story, but I once had a job maintaining a couple of acres of old glass greenhouses where the glass was laid shingle-style bedded in tar, and I learned the truth of the tarbaby. I can assure you that it is impossible to handle tar without it getting smeared in the most unlikely places, and one cannot avoid getting smeared.

You are attempting to debate the tarbaby...
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#314802 - 09/04/19 03:12 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9449
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I have always admired the Works Progress Administration and the Civilian Conservation Corps. The things created and accomplished during that time inspire me.
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#314812 - 09/04/19 04:38 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   happy

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14303
Loc: Whittier, California
If they (by "they" I mean "we" of course) ever do get another WPA up and running, hopefully we can squeeze some affordable housing out of it.

Yeah I know, I know...in twenty or thirty years people will say they're ugly eyesores, and by that point or soon after, some entrepreneur is going to want to tear them down.

But no matter what, don't forget that during that twenty or thirty years span that ugly affordable housing will have served a purpose, to help working families stay together and exercise upward mobility.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#314817 - 09/04/19 10:42 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9449
Loc: One of the Mexicos
The WPA and CCC were clearly socialist endeavors that helped to pull the nation through a really rough patch, at the same time creating much that has been of lasting value. Landscapes that had been trashed by rampant capitalists were healed, public works were built (walking around my town you still see “WPA 1937” stamped into sidewalks and streets everywhere), and the National Park Service has loads of architecturally significant buildings that were constructed with real craftsmanship.

It was a time when big government truly produced a great deal of wealth while helping people in need.
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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