Current Topics
War with Iran
by Kaine
Impeach
by logtroll
12:31 AM
Trump, Tarriffs, Promises
by jgw
04:42 PM
Democratic Socialism
by Gregor
02:00 PM
Is it too soon to be talking 2020?
by Gregor
01:39 PM
Roundtable for June
by NW Ponderer
06:24 AM
congress and the administration
by jgw
06/16/19 08:00 PM
war and other stuff
by jgw
06/12/19 05:09 PM
Roundtable for April 2019
by pondering_it_all
06/12/19 07:11 AM
The Mueller Report
by pondering_it_all
06/01/19 01:57 AM
Memorial Day
by Golem
05/27/19 02:23 PM
chinese exclusion act
by Jeffery J. Haas
05/27/19 01:52 AM
Roe v. Wade Is Under Immediate Threat
by pondering_it_all
05/25/19 04:26 AM
Is it time to be very afraid?
by Jeffery J. Haas
05/24/19 10:38 PM
end is nigh
by jgw
05/23/19 05:46 PM
At ease, disease. Thar’s fungus amongus.
by pondering_it_all
05/21/19 01:51 AM
Forum Stats
6248 Members
58 Forums
16562 Topics
285972 Posts

Max Online: 294 @ 12/06/17 12:57 AM
Google Adsense
Page 2 of 24 < 1 2 3 4 ... 23 24 >
Topic Options
#310306 - 01/11/19 01:24 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1444
Honestly, this debate is more about wether or not we become neoliberal fascists or democratic socialist.
Clearly, neoliberal fascism is in the lead.

Top
#310307 - 01/11/19 02:33 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9025
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
That is why I started this thread, to create more of a framework for discussion. Let's go back to Representative Ocasio-Cortez and Senator Warren. Do either have a vision of how to proceed in our fractious society? Are those visions mature enough to provide a roadmap? Are the forces they inspire able to be controlled? Are their visions sufficiently different?

Both Perlstein and Sunkara eventually hit on the fundamental need for people to have to be in a position of "shared sacrifice" before either system really works. Both NWP and Greger implied that neither system actually exists in any pure intellectual form - I agree. I think that a debate between "capitalism" and "socialism" is therefore impossible and a distraction.

A more useful approach might be to first recognize that the problems are cultural. How possible is cultural change? How much of culture is born of intrinsic human nature? How much is taught? Of course, the 30' hardened concrete wall that is a barrier to changing a culture is a serious problem. It is a problem when people have 'freedom' (free market capitalism), and it it a problem when people are 'regulated' (dictatorial socialism).

The only possibility that I see, and it is a slim possibility, is for more enlightened people to figure out how to set the stage for the masses to choose to be more cooperative/collaborative as the obvious, natural, and right best option.

Now that I have sufficiently identified the opportunity, I would appreciate it if you all would get going on a plan for implementation... cool

The Green New Deal could be a platform for implementation, but it needs to be very cleverly used.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

Top
#310309 - 01/11/19 04:22 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1444
Ummmm....

What culture?
You mean consumer culture? Because that's almost entirely what I see now in the country. What culture isn't being created by corporations and the industrial entertainment complex?

Not to be argumentative over your point Logs but if I'm accurately describing culture as a manufactured corporate enterprise thru mass media then your talking about changing what is arguably one of the power centers in American society.

I'm not convinced that are more 'enlightened' elites can make a case without addressing peoples material concerns. The Democrats won't and the republicans are going full on despotism.

Whereas the left.....
Well, I vote for replacing 'The Internationale' with Jarvis Cocker's more appropriate 2007 single for winning hearts and minds



"Beware the artists, they mix with all classes of society and are therefore more dangerous"

Top
#310310 - 01/11/19 04:24 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16729
I completely agree, jgw, with your last post. Neither of the protagonists were even close to "right" in their analysis, in my view. They spent so much time defining labels for themselves and others, and really missing the obvious. For example, our Constitution is obviously designed with both "socialist" (e.g., general welfare) and "capitalist" (various freedoms "From" and preserving property), or at least "libertarian" elements. Paying attention to that, and the balance of powers within the document, would go a long way toward solving our problems.

Neither the Senate nor the White House are representing "The people's" interests. The House I am more hopeful of, with some, if not a substantial number, of Republican Representatives willing to do their jobs. Tactics may be more important, right now, than positions, although there are some policy issues that need to be immediately addressed in a multi-partisan fashion, like immigration and economic/tax reform. As pessimistic as I am, I have a glimmer of hope that the debacle of the shutdown might concentrate the minds of legislators to do their jobs. Impeachment may be the next major hurdle to restoring sanity to government, although the pollution of the judiciary may obviate much of that sanity, e.g., the Texas ACA ruling. We have to take responsibility, as citizens, for the mess we've allowed politics to get us into.

Top
#310312 - 01/11/19 06:51 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2516
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
There is, I think, a major flaw in the question (capitalist or socialist?). Our system is a bit of most. We have publicly funded Police and Firemen, for instance. I have yet to hear ANYBODY suggesting that Police get privatized. One of the southern states, for get which, actually tried to privatize their fire department but after houses catching fire and lighting up others they put a quick stop to that one. There are also things like Libraries that are also socialized along with education. When the voters, and gov, get lazy and these socializations go south the privatizers come out of the woodwork. My own view is that, in most cases, privatization is little more than an opportunity of the greedy (schools have, pretty much proven that one).

The problem is the interface between public and gov. Gov isn't doing its job so its the duty of the voters to get somebody who can actually function. The problem, of course, falls back of the voting public when they screw up. I have not yet noticed anybody actually standing up and stating the simple fact that voters DO SCREW UP, let alone trying to explain how and why. Don't change the simple fact that they do.

I am told that our schools, these days, don't spend a lot of time on "social studies". I even find the title strange "social studies", huh? "social"? Anyway, again, kids need to learn how gov works and it should be a major part of what they learn because they are the voters of the future and, right now, we seem to be producing voters that haven't a clue how it all works. I would actually be pretty interesting. I would really be interested in a school district that forced "social studies" in a big way. Betcha there would be a lot of the ignorant voting parents howling about that one! <G>

Anyway, there are government services that function properly. The VA, for instance, can provide healthcare for approximately 30% of what the retail cost it. (them asking for medicare for all would do much better with VA Healthcare for all) The VA, however, screwed up in some of their hospitals and rather than fix the problem the problem got worse as gov decided to fix it without a real clue (gov sometimes does this). Then the Republicans came in and tried to privatize (and significantly increase the cost without increasing competence). The VA is currently suffering under all this and its getting more screwed up by the day. I have been going to the VA for something close to almost 70 years and have never had a problem until very recently. There have been small irritations and, when I told somebody I found them taken care of. I have a friend who is a doctor working at the VA as a "hospitaler" (hopefully that is his right designation, if not, sorry). His job is to make sure stuff is functioning properly and he has stories to tell. On the other hand I had an employee who got a tattoo. It got infected and the next thing he knew his immune system failed. He was in the local hospital, completely wired up across from the nurses station. In the middle of the night he got up, out of bed, walked out of the hospital dragging wires (I was told this by a witness) and NOBODY even bothered to do anything (the nurse's station, it turned out, was dutifully manned by a sleeping nurse. He went home and hung himself. The point is that all institutions sometimes fail.

I have been in several hospitals, owned and operated by the state (UK, Canada, etc), I got good service and survived.

Anyway, I think I have moved off the topic, my apologies (sometimes I get a bit carried away with the my admiration of my own voice).

Top
#310314 - 01/11/19 07:29 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14867
Loc: Florida
Quote:
sometimes I get a bit carried away


LOL yes, those walls of text can be a bit intimidating. I type pretty fast and I can string words together pretty well and I can go on and on if I choose. But it dawned on me that my point is often lost to the reiteration of well known facts and complaints so I try to mostly keep it short and sweet these days.

When I read your(always interesting) posts there is usually something that catches my eye and makes me say "Whoa, pard'ner something is amiss with this thought."
This time around it's this...

Quote:
The problem is the interface between public and gov. Gov isn't doing its job so its the duty of the voters to get somebody who can actually function. The problem, of course, falls back of the voting public when they screw up. I have not yet noticed anybody actually standing up and stating the simple fact that voters DO SCREW UP, let alone trying to explain how and why. Don't change the simple fact that they do.


Half of the voters in America believe that voters screwed up when they elected Obama.

Half of the voters in America believe that voters screwed up when they elected Trump.

There's your problem right there.



_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#310324 - 01/12/19 02:38 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9025
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Ummmm.... What culture?

What culture, indeed. I think I am trying to identify and understand the problem in order to be able to consider solutions. We might say that the problem is consumer culture - or it might be tribalism - or it might be any combination of a thousand things. But that approach is identifying the symptoms of the problem and not its root.

As I wondered above, is the root some defect of human nature? Is it learned? A combination of both? We need to understand what it is.

My instinctual approach is to try and manifest forms of possible solutions rather than intellectually formulate them. I don't have much faith in conceptual solutions that prescribe cultural change.

Is revolution a viable option for achieving cultural change? I think it is and has often been manifested, but it is generally a very rough tool and seldom seems to have a well-reasoned and sustainable future outcome. The American Revolution appears to have been a better example of cultural change by fighting - the Civil War was a far worse example (many of the core issues remain unresolved). It is notable that the AR had a carefully stated Declaration, which named issues and desired conditions - the GND movement appears to be following that example.

Another example given in the article is when a deeply shared cause results in people working more cooperatively (warring against other tribes) with "shared sacrifice" becoming a top cultural value. That term lit me up, wondering why "shared benefits" couldn't be as effective a motivator as shared sacrifice.

You mentioned a few intentional examples of people working cooperatively, the Mondragon Coop as one, where the objective was shared benefits instead of shared sacrifice. Two of my life inspirations are the Civilian Conservation Corps and WPA, and Roycroft. I think we are getting warmer...

The GND has potential if it figures out how to manifest its values in solid and pragmatic works, around which policy and culture can develop. If it languishes primarily in the intellectual and disputed world of broad concepts and policy, it will not go far or solve any problems. Change will be more substantial if people desire it in a positive way.

The enlightened leaders (did I say 'elite'?) need to be living the reformed culture, not just talking about it. And anyone who does this will be a leader.

_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

Top
#310351 - 01/13/19 11:13 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2516
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
You are probably right. I do, however, believe that the American voting public is a lazy, ignorant, bunch of self serving loons, for the most part. Its been said, any number of times, that the elected class actually mirrors them that elected them and I believe that.

If that is true then the incredible incompetence, of our elected, simply reflects them that voted them into office. Its probably, pretty much, simply the way it is. We should also remember that any voter turnout, over 50% is considered a huge landslide and, it would seem, rarely happens. The very fact that there are them that don't vote simple adds fuel to my thought. Someplace I posted a story about a school district that didn't vote and their schools were a genuine mess. The real problem was the not voting but the folks running the schools were blamed. I watched them on TV (the administrators) and they were close to tears over the state of their schools - didn't change a damned thing. Parents were simply too busy to vote in the interest of their own children. I would expand that to question their ability to actually vote in their own best interest and tend to believe that they are more ignorant than mislead.

Top
#310352 - 01/13/19 11:33 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2516
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I remember watching on TV somebody who was not from the United States but had just had the profession of being a Lobbyist to him. He was absolutely amazed. His response was, "do you mean to tell me that the United States as legislated bribery? He was absolutely stunned. He was right. This has been going on for a very long time. As long as the elected class stays with the rules they can get very, very rich. When they don't they REALLY get stomped on - by their own!

The very fact that everybody knows what a lobbyist does, and how much money they distribute (if you don't I would suggest https://www.opensecrets.org/). The fact that its been going on for a very, very long time yet nobody seems to do a damn thing about it. One would think that somebody would but, nope, not going to happen.

My point is that bribery is something we all hate yet we have, for literally years, let it continue under whatever you want to call it. The current phrase, I think, is 'contribution'. Oh, then there are the rules about "campaign funds". Just part of the dressing but as simple as that is some just can't abide sticking with the rules that help them with bribery and keep them all out of jail.

My real point is that we are all whining and beating our chests and weeping over the evils of our system and, at the same time, ignore an abuse that is just staring us right in the eye. Other nations have dealt with this. They put controls in place to control the amounts of money as well as how much they can spend. In America its a bit different. Regular folk are restricted to giving small amounts. Them that are rich can spend, literally, billions. This is right up front! Read all about it! There are even those who tried to do something about it, John McCain comes to mind. Don' make no difference.

If we can't deal with basic stuff how in the world do we expect we can deal with somebody like Jackass who has broken every rule, lies virtually all the time, is a sexual predator, and a genuine human jackass. I would humbly suggest that the simple fact is that the American Voting public just does not give a damn and neither do those they elect to a job that can make them rich. Then, of course, we expect them to behave better. Simple question - why?

Top
#310354 - 01/14/19 12:20 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14867
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Simple question - why?


Simple answer - politics.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
Page 2 of 24 < 1 2 3 4 ... 23 24 >

Who's Online
0 registered (), 22 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TrentonP, Nosf50, erumonej, Jensen Breck, Albertapkr
6248 Registered Users
A2