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#310489 - 01/21/19 08:15 PM shutdown confusion
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2414
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I am a bit confused about the shutdown. Apparently its all about a wall/fence/barrier etc. I find it odd. I think legislation goes like the following when legislating agencies. The president offers a bill or the congress writes a bill to fund the agency. Then it wins or loses (I am simplifying here). So, we have several agencies who are in charge of our borders.

These would be:
Department of Homeland Security (DHS)
U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), which patrols the border and conducts immigrations, customs, and agricultural inspections at ports of entry
U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE), which investigates immigrations and customs violations in the interior of the country

I am not sure that any of these agencies/departments have even requested funding for the wall, fence, etc. So, basically, the wall thing is a piece of legislation that either the above have requested or its a separate thing. This would be like, I think, ordering a new plane for the Airforce. If they didn't request the new plane then .......... If the agencies above haven't requested the wall, fence, thing then ..........

This thing even gets stranger. New funding of the aforementioned agencies/departments does not, I think, specify how to spend the money, the agencies/departments request money and give their reasons but the actual legislation really only needs to give the money to said agencies.

Where I am going is that I just don't get it. Whatever agency is in charge of walls and barriers then why in the world doesn't the congress just given them the money? Then the agency/department can proceed to distribute and otherwise spend the money awarded for that agency/department to do its thing. If this is true then all congress has to do is to pass funding for the agency in charge, they need not even mention walls, etc. just get the money, then, if they see the need for barriers of one sort or another build the damned things! If not, then skip them. I am, of course, basing this on my belief that gov agencies and departments are growed up, in charge of their own expenditures, have goals, etc. Even their budgets, in the end, are fantasies until they actually have money in hand and, I also expect, there are always "other necessities" that were missed but allowances were made and requests probably set aside for such?

If I am right then this big battle, shutdown, etc. is just pure and utter nonsense. Just pass the legislation, without mention of walls, fences, etc. and let the agency/department do its thing! There is, basically, no reason to even mention the walls, fences, etc. stuff! The big battle is, basically not only self made but completely unnecessary!

I am probably wrong - its just seems so simple to me! (I gotta be wrong but thought I would submit this to see)

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#310500 - 01/22/19 04:06 AM Re: shutdown confusion [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13654
Loc: Whittier, California
It's crystal clear that a shutdown gambit was planned right around the time it was obvious that the Democrats were going to win big. I am convinced that a shutdown was planned even before the midterms.
Was it planned around immigration/the wall? Possibly but it could have been planned using a lot of different issues.
And the list of issues that will prompt further shutdowns is endless.

He's a hostage taker willing to shut down the government over new policy. Even a whiff of a win for him on this will only encourage his continued battery.

Donald Trump will order recurring shutdowns on everything from Hell to breakfast. He will treat his shutdown pen the way a pubescent teenage boy treats Playboy Magazine and his appendage.

A lot of people, Trumpers mostly, do not realize that it stopped being "about the wall" a long time ago, a couple of weeks ago at least.

Next time, and the next time, and the next time, and the next time, it will be about:

Drugs, MS13, rapists, caravans of killers, enviro-regs, entitlements, wars, even not getting his parade. The list is endless.

I've said several times that I could be persuaded to support a couple of billion to build more walls. I doubt it would amount to much but okay whatever. But the reason I have dug my heels in, (and I keep repeating it) is:

BECAUSE TRUMP HAD A HISSY FIT AND SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT!

If he wanted to negotiate seriously, he wouldn't have done that.
And I keep repeating that this fight is ABOUT the SHUTDOWN and ONLY about the shutdown and NO ONE on the other side wants to hear it. They keep carping about how I don't support border security.
No...I don't support assholes who shut the government down when the democratic process doesn't go the way they wanted!

So yes, it is going to take a lot of stomach and a lot of spine to hold fast and teach these jerks that they don't get to take hostages when they don't like the way things went. And if we don't put a stop to this crap right here, right now, once and for all, it will continue and it will get worse.

No deals, no negotiations until the government is reopened and it STAYS open.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#310501 - 01/22/19 04:08 AM Re: shutdown confusion [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13654
Loc: Whittier, California
And by the way, in case you missed it, Governor Newsom of California says he intends to offer unemployment to furloughed federal workers in California, and a few other states are following suit.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#310502 - 01/22/19 06:54 AM Re: shutdown confusion [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8378
Loc: North San Diego County
As long as he doesn't give unemployment insurance to non-furloughed non-paid employees, because that would mean the federal government is just taking the state's money. TSA workers in particular need to sick-in or quit en masse to shutdown the airlines. Then Congress will take this seriously and override Trump. It's got to happen eventually: Might as well be now before too many get harmed in a way that back-pay can't fix.

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#310503 - 01/22/19 01:49 PM Re: shutdown confusion [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 395
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Just in case you really do not know how the budget process works and in very broad strokes. As I understood it, the budget process goes something like this:

An Agency develops their budget, aggregating their various offices funding requests that were assigned to various specific and generalized categories, often called buckets.

The Agency's funding request is forwarded to the White House, where changes can be made and it is compiled into one (HUGE!) document which is sent to Congress.

Congress goes through, makes changes (sometimes negotiated with the Executive) increasing or decreasing dollar amounts per line item (Bucket) often adding pork, or funding an item only if something happens and sometimes not funding an item at all. Also budget line items identifiers are assigned (this is the real bucket) it is like an account's check book

Once a budget is approved it goes back to the President and the funds for each line item (bucket) is forwarded to each agency along with the funds identifier, thus the agency is funded.

Now here is the confusing part. The money each agency has for the allocated cycle can only be spent on the specific bucket it is allocated to. If there is a need for more, the Executive can go back and ask for more for that bucket or they can approve the Agency to re-allocate from some other bucket approved by congress for that purpose. This bucket is often a few tens or hundreds of million. In short, if congress did not fund or allocate funds for a specific item it is not funded and money can not be shifted with out the specific approval of congress or it will come from a rainy day bucket the agency can shift money from.

At least that is how I understand the budget process.

Congress is (the House of Representatives) the only body that can fund an item in the budget and the Senate only approves or disapproves, this current shutdown rests on Senate Leader Mitch McConnell's and President Donald (Coward, Bone Spur, Raciest, Misogynist, Criminal, Traitor) Trump's shoulders. Because the House did their Constitutional Duty and approved a budget, they, the Senate and the Executive have not.

Even if the executive vetoes a budget the congress can override and the government is funded.
_________________________
Vote 2020.

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#310504 - 01/22/19 02:35 PM Re: shutdown confusion [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6691
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I feel pretty sure Sen McConnell will not bring any House budget bill to floor of Senate. I suspect the reason is fear. Fear of the base. Bringing bills to floor which Mr Trump does not support would be a slap in the face to Mr Trump and therefore would bring the ire of his base. Every senator who would vote for a Democrat pass House bill would be primaried. This is major legislation for the base. Of course Mexico is still not paying for the WALL.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#310505 - 01/22/19 06:48 PM Re: shutdown confusion [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2414
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
So, I guess 1)I was wrong and 2)the craven Republican class is, basically, willing to sacrifice the nation to keep their jobs?

Oh, an amusement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecfqbWCiZSA&t=1022s

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#310512 - 01/22/19 11:47 PM Re: shutdown confusion [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6691
Loc: Highlands, Tx
In 2017 Mr Trump signed a bill for

• $251 million for approximately 14 miles of secondary fencing along the southwest border in the San Diego sector;

• $445 million for 25 miles of primary pedestrian levee fencing along the southwest border in the Rio Grande Valley Sector;

• $196 million for primary pedestrian fencing along the southwest border in the Rio Grande Valley Sector;

• $445 million for replacement of existing primary pedestrian fencing along the southwest border;

• $38 million for border barrier planning and design; and

• $196 million for acquisition and deployment of border security technology

i.e. border security. Does he want more border security? yep but he has equated border security with THE TRUMP WALL.

What he really wants is a monument to himself. So I ask if Mr Trump told you he wanted a yuuuuge statue of himself to ward away elephants in your neighborhood, would you pay for it?

This is basically the same thing. The wall does not provide an commensurate amount of border security for cost of wall. Every government stat regarding border security points to more man power and high tech approaches.

A little over a month ago, the Senate passed on a bi-partisan basis (I think the vote was 98-0) a CR, but Mr Trump's right wing advisors jumped up and down and caused him to balk at signing the bill. A rational person would think if the Democrat led House passed the exact same bill the Senate passed, Sen McConnell would simply bring those bills back to the floor of the Senate for a vote ... it would pass and be veto proof. So you tell me, why won't Sen McConnell bring those bills to the floor?
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#310514 - 01/22/19 11:59 PM Re: shutdown confusion [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14780
Loc: Florida
Why? Because they want to force Democrats down on their knees and force them to fellate President Trump. Only that will suffice.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#310516 - 01/23/19 12:28 AM Re: shutdown confusion [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8378
Loc: North San Diego County
This is really all about Trump's inability to be a President instead of a King: Republicans lost the House in the midterms, and now Trump and his Senate toadies need to adjust their ways of doing business. Trump is throwing a temper tantrum until the Democrats act nice and pretend they did not win. But no matter what Trump does, facts are facts: They won, and now control all bills that spend any money. That's the new reality. Democrats have the House, and thus The Power of the Purse, as the founding fathers put it.

Republicans in the Senate can either adjust or perish. If they chose to join in the tantrum, most of them lose their jobs in 2020. I would prefer Trump's people just beat him with metaphorical 2x4s every day until he gets it that he isn't King. Maybe they should disable Fox channel on the TV.

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