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#322555 - 03/07/20 11:36 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10156
Loc: One of the Mexicos
The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist?

The answer is neither. Capitalism is an ideological myth. Socialism is an ideological myth. They do not exist, they are simply flawed intellectual abstractions. Pretending they exist is blocking rational discussion of what does exist and pragmatic ideas of how to best deal with the problems that we have created.

This article is a good example - it showcases young people who recognize an existential crisis and are looking for solutions but who feel compelled to try to make their solutions fit within the box of an ideological myth, which unnecessarily complicates and constrains their efforts. It’s funny, and sad, that free markets are a bedrock condition of their plan, yet a key strategy is using government incentives to shape the “free markets”.

It is a religious taboo to acknowledge that this strategy is not legitimate capitalism, nor is it sacred socialism. What is it? Does it even need a name?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#322563 - 03/07/20 05:19 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17387
Originally Posted By: jgw
The very word "socialist" has cost Bernie the presidency - just saying............

I know, I guess I just don't understand.........
As it turns out, being a socialist is less of a stigma than being a woman.

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#322566 - 03/07/20 05:48 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: jgw
The very word "socialist" has cost Bernie the presidency - just saying............

I know, I guess I just don't understand.........
As it turns out, being a socialist is less of a stigma than being a woman.


The smearing continues...

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#322569 - 03/07/20 07:05 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3242
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I just cannot resist. I really don't understand that necessity to even say 'socialist'. Then, after that deny that same 'socialist' and then say nobody understands. Just make a simple distinction. There are social services and they are not socialism. Socialism is a political thing social is something done by society. I am amazed that somebody has yet to come up with something like "societyist" or somesuch. This entire blather about a word is simply amazing although also a bit odd, at least to me.

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#322570 - 03/07/20 07:08 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: jgw]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10156
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: jgw
I just cannot resist. I really don't understand that necessity to even say 'socialist'. Then, after that deny that same 'socialist' and then say nobody understands. Just make a simple distinction. There are social services and they are not socialism. Socialism is a political thing social is something done by society. I am amazed that somebody has yet to come up with something like "societyist" or somesuch. This entire blather about a word is simply amazing although also a bit odd, at least to me.

Do you say ‘capitalist’? Do you say ‘conservative’? Why do we use words at all, if we can’t agree on their definitions?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#322623 - 03/08/20 07:30 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16852
Loc: Florida
Quote:
There are social services and they are not socialism. Socialism is a political thing social is something done by society. I am amazed that somebody has yet to come up with something like "societyist" or somesuch.


Social Democracy is what it's called. Except in America where we hate social services. Here we must link it to something everyone hates so no one will want healthcare, fair wages, and education.

So far it's working and you(JGW) will vote for the guy who wants to send jobs overseas, keep wages low and healthcare unattainable. The guy who wants to make abortion illegal, keep college debt high, and the eternal wars going on forever. The guy who has voted on several occasions to reduce Social Security and cut Medicare. They guy who thinks $7.25 is a fair wage and can't remember which state he's in or which office he's running for.

The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist?

It is neither. America has no future.
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#322638 - 03/09/20 12:50 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
There are social services and they are not socialism. Socialism is a political thing social is something done by society. I am amazed that somebody has yet to come up with something like "societyist" or somesuch.


Social Democracy is what it's called. Except in America where we hate social services. Here we must link it to something everyone hates so no one will want healthcare, fair wages, and education.

So far it's working and you(JGW) will vote for the guy who wants to send jobs overseas, keep wages low and healthcare unattainable. The guy who wants to make abortion illegal, keep college debt high, and the eternal wars going on forever. The guy who has voted on several occasions to reduce Social Security and cut Medicare. They guy who thinks $7.25 is a fair wage and can't remember which state he's in or which office he's running for.

The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist?

It is neither. America has no future.


Twenty years from now, when most people from my generation are long dead, Trump will be remembered for what he did to capitalism, AND democracy.
And I guarantee you that the same fearmongering and paranoia will be attached to capitalism thanks to Trump that is currently being attached to socialism thanks to Castro.
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#322737 - 03/11/20 07:03 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3242
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
You may be right about Trump. On the other hand he may get covid-19 and die due to having another rally. In that case he will go down as the perfect example of an elected jackass who ignored science, facts, and covid-19 - got his just rewards, and set a new low for the American Voting Public.

Just a thought............


Edited by jgw (03/11/20 07:03 PM)

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#322738 - 03/11/20 07:15 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16852
Loc: Florida
Or Biden may die of it before the general election...Does Bernie then become the nominee? Or do we just default to four more years of Trump since he'll be running against a dead man...
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Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#322739 - 03/11/20 07:19 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16852
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Twenty years from now, when most people from my generation are long dead, Trump will be remembered for what he did to capitalism, AND democracy.
And I guarantee you that the same fearmongering and paranoia will be attached to capitalism thanks to Trump that is currently being attached to socialism thanks to Castro.


I wouldn't count on that, we might not even end the Cuban Embargo by then. How is Reagan remembered? You may have forgotten that Americans have very short memories.
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