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#310718 - 02/02/19 08:26 PM Political Correctness run amok
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42122
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

I'm getting tired of the blow-back the Liz Warran is getting regarding her Native American ancestry.

Both the Cherokee and Delaware tribes have denounced her ancestry because she is not a Native American culturally.

Warren never claimed to be a Native American culturally, only through ancestry. Both the Cherokee and Delaware tribes never address the ancestry aspect, only the cultural aspect and denounce what they deem as "racial science."

Facts are facts, if your DNA shows that you're related to a particular group of people, cultural affiliation is not the point and to only identify as a group through culture is rather elitist.

Secondly, Ralph Northam was racist and bigot 35 years ago, or at the very minimum joked about racism and bigotry. Today, thirty-five years later, his views are quite different.

Same with Al Franken, different person in 2018 than in 2002.

Do people have to be held accountable for their past sins of decades ago? When does rehabilitation factor in - if ever? Hmm

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#310719 - 02/03/19 12:53 AM Re: Political Correctness wrong amok [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17185
Rick, you beat me to the punch. I was about to post a query about a "reality check" for me. I think that there has been an overreaction to both the Warren and Northam situations. I listened to Northam's press conference today, and I think he did a good job of acquitting himself. Warren has been a very strong advocate for tribal interests her entire career (perhaps because she has native American ancestry). Northam, from what I understand, has been a strong advocate for minority interests throughout his career.

I raised this issue with my son, who thinks it is simple and I am using a double standard. I strongly disagree. But, that's where the "reality check" comes into play. I distinguished Kavanaugh's situation from Northam's and Warren's (in part because his is a lifetime appointment - no take-backsies).

So, here's my question: Is it a double standard, on my part, because I am a Democrat? Because I am white? Male? Liberal?

Or, in my defense, is there an appropriate distinction to be made? Robert Byrd and Hugo Black were both members of the Klan in their 20's and 30's, yet both became champions of racial causes later in their careers. People can change. Northam denied that the picture in the yearbook is of him, but admitted that on another occasion in 1984 he had "darkened his skin" during a dance imitating Michael Jackson (so much to say about that, but not here). He denied harboring racist thoughts and history, and asked that his whole career be examined to determine if the allegations were fair. Yet, everyone is calling for his resignation.

I have three arguments that convince me that these complaints (against Northam, Warren, and even Al Franken) have gone too far: First, people do change, and it is important to take a "whole career" approach to evaluating their "guilt" or "innocence" - and value; second, are they sincerely remorseful?; and third, are we really supposed to be the party of forgiveness, second chances, and reason, or do we adopt the "purity" tests so popular in conservative circles? At the same time, is it fair to judge Kavanaugh differently that Franken? Is it a matter of party?

I roundly condemned Bill Clinton's behavior at the time, and still do. I did not, however, think it rose to the level of impeachment, and still don't. Censure, yes, but not removal. In today's world, he'd have been hounded out by his own party.

I thought that Kavanaugh's defense, like Thomas's before him, was offensive and insincere. It, frankly, made me doubt his veracity - on top of which, he was (and continues to be) a terrible choice for the Supreme Court. Maybe, however, he can change (Thomas never has). The worst part of that process though, is that they were both confirmed without an adequate investigation of their fitness, or the underlying behavior that came up. In the case of Supreme Court Justices, doubts MUST be resolved before confirmation, and both will have careers clouded by that issue being unresolved.

Warren has never claimed to be a member of a tribe, and the leadership of those tribes have not condemned her for her, admittedly awkward, reveal - only particularly strident lesser officials and advocates. She needed to address the issue, though, before he candidacy, and her method was not irrational at all. Moreover, her record speaks for herself (which is why tribal leaders have supported her). She has always advocated for minorities and tribes in particular.

Franken was an outstanding advocate for women. Indeed, Gillibrand's swift condemnation of him and advocacy for his removal is why I cannot support her candidacy right now, although I like her positions on issues and think she is a quality candidate. Northam, as far as I can find, has always been an advocate for minority interests. I think, like Kavanaugh, he should not be forced to resign until a more thorough vetting process has occurred.

Finally, I follow the advice that Barack Obama gave with regard to Northam following the Charlottesville events: "That's how we rise. We don't rise up by repeating the past. We rise up by learning from the past and by listening to each other and knowing that we're all flawed. But we still try to preserve some baseline measure of goodness and decency and patriotism and we look for the good in other people, not the worst." That, I think, is the better standard for Democratic values than "Caesar's wife" purity.

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#310721 - 02/03/19 12:57 AM Re: Political Correctness wrong amok [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   happy

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14621
Loc: Whittier, California
Franken was a one hundred percent setup by Roger Stone.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#310723 - 02/03/19 01:33 AM Re: Political Correctness wrong amok [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42122
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Republicans never resign - only Democrats do.

Republicans stay in political races and sometimes win that race even after negative Access Hollywood tapes are released. Democrats always leave the race.

This is politics in America. Hmm
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#310724 - 02/03/19 01:47 AM Re: Political Correctness wrong amok [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15785
Loc: Florida
Well, yeah, are Democrats supposed to be free from all sin?
Are we that pure and intolerant?

I thought we were the party of tolerance?

Maybe not so much anymore.

Donald Trump is the Presdient for F*cks sake! The first lady of the United States of America posed nude for magaziness.

And Democrats are insisting on Victorian era morality among themselves.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#310725 - 02/03/19 02:20 AM Re: Political Correctness wrong amok [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8955
Loc: North San Diego County
Not really, or at least only recently. Look at Bill Clinton: He got a BJ from an intern yet still managed to keep his office. Now Newt was getting LOTS of BJs at the same time, apparently, so that might have made some difference.

We have a very long history of politicians getting some strange on the side, so I don't think it makes much sense for people to resign over it. It was pretty stupid for Democrats to demand Franken's head. I think it just takes a little humility, a confession of stupidity caused by testosterone poisoning, and we should let it go.

BTW, the expression is "run amok".

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#310726 - 02/03/19 02:53 AM Re: Political Correctness wrong amok [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3861
Loc: Eugene, OR
Some random thoughts:

yet both became champions of racial causes later in their careers.

So did George Wallace-to an extent. “Funny” thing about claiming Native American heritage. Back in the day people would try to hide such a thing at all costs. A n--r in the woodpile.” No! Or---I ain’t no Injun".

Then later on for some it became fashionable to have “the other” as an ancestor. And many would proudly proclaim such even if it were mostly an exaggerated smidgin..... Years ago my wife and I while living in Corvallis had a Mexican couple with us for 3 1/2 years (it was to have been only one--long story) while they attended Oregon State University. Abel getting his PhD in mechanical engineering and his wife Rita getting her Masters in food science. Which they both managed to accomplish.

Abel and Rita were both very brown. In other words a “typical" Mexican looking couple. When I helped them move back to central Mexico-driving- in the early 1990’s Abel would look at some likely pure blooded Mexican natives along the way and proclaim them “Los Indios” with a wave of his hand. Never picking up on the irony as I saw it.

My guess is that both Abel and Rita were about half Native and half Euro. As are the majority of Mexican nationals. (Don’t quote me on that). Yet Abel never
saw that--assuming I suppose that he was “Mexican” and not “Indio”.

People mostly see what they want to see. And assign themselves to a certain tribe. Methinks a large part of that is coded into our DNA as well as affected by culture and upbringing.


_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#310727 - 02/03/19 06:33 AM Re: Political Correctness wrong amok [Re: Ken Condon]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42122
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
“Funny” thing about claiming Native American heritage.

Now-a-days, you can't claim Native American heritage unless you're currently culturally immersed in the culture.

Claiming to have polynucleotides of Native American in your chromosomes is simply "racial science" now-a-days by elitists who don't want you a part of their club, based upon if the Tribe feels that you have been sufficiently immersed into the Native American culture enough. coffee

After you've been deemed not culturally adequate enough, you'll be deemed a race-baiter for exposing the elitist cultural membership criteria. Hmm
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#310729 - 02/03/19 07:37 PM Re: Political Correctness wrong amok [Re: pdx rick]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2642
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Welcome to the Righteous Left! The latest victim is the current governor of Virginia. Whatever good he has accomplished, in the last 20 years are for naught - he is obviously a bad person doing the work of the devil. Just get rid of him, take any utterance as a sign of demonic possession, etc.

Republicans can rest peacefully, they only have Jackass - not these fake lefties who are appropriately outed for acts done 35 years ago. I know, there was also that horrendous statement about killing babies! Just terrible <sigh>

The Dems, I suspect, have proven that they can eat their own with the best of them.

Anybody who has not fully embraced the desires, wishes, beliefs of the righteous left just have to be gone and any good works must be disavowed or you will be visited, demonized, and attacked.

Too much??

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#310732 - 02/04/19 02:47 AM Re: Political Correctness wrong amok [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8955
Loc: North San Diego County
Tribes with casinos have a financial motive for attacking DNA tests. The more people they can kick out of the tribe, the bigger their checks are. A lot of those cases are about paternity and such, and DNA testing can sometimes proves somebody has the right Native American progenitors. In the past, there was a simple fraction qualification, but with DNA testing you might discover your fraction is not what you thought.

The value of that fraction is shockingly low: 25% Native American in most cases. Some tribes demand as low as 6.25%!

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