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#310825 - 02/09/19 01:22 AM Re: It can never happen here! [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16741
You didn't mention OUR election...

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#310829 - 02/09/19 07:02 AM Re: It can never happen here! [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8546
Loc: North San Diego County
The ironic thing is that Trump is supporting an action in Venezuela much like our Amendment 25: "The elected President must be kicked out because he is unfit to lead." Okay. Now let's remove Trump for the same reason.

I actually agree with Trump. Madura does not seem fit to lead. He has let the oil infrastructure crumble by investing none of the income back into it. That is pretty good evidence he is incompetent. But the same logic has to apply to Trump: He has damaged all sorts of trade agreements, screwed over out allies, aided our adversaries, done his best to make all sorts of government agencies ineffective, committed multiple crimes, sided with murderers (Russia and Saudi Arabia), lined his pockets, etc.

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#310832 - 02/09/19 01:04 PM Re: It can never happen here! [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1503
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
The ironic thing is that Trump is supporting an action in Venezuela much like our Amendment 25: "The elected President must be kicked out because he is unfit to lead." Okay. Now let's remove Trump for the same reason.

I actually agree with Trump. Madura does not seem fit to lead. He has let the oil infrastructure crumble by investing none of the income back into it. That is pretty good evidence he is incompetent. But the same logic has to apply to Trump: He has damaged all sorts of trade agreements, screwed over out allies, aided our adversaries, done his best to make all sorts of government agencies ineffective, committed multiple crimes, sided with murderers (Russia and Saudi Arabia), lined his pockets, etc.


So you agree with the Trump on wether or not to inflict state sponsored violence on a sovereign nation after we've frozen their assets and bled their economy white but you think he's incompetent to be president cuz Russia?! Kashaggi?
Is that about right?

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#310833 - 02/09/19 02:11 PM Re: It can never happen here! [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1503
To go against Exxon is to go against the will of god!
The spice must flow!
Just so you can't claim ignorance to not knowing what the implications and motivations are for what appears to be impending US sponsered violence for resource extraction, here's some background on Juan Guaido and his relationship to the current US administration.

Our man in Veneuzala

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#310840 - 02/10/19 05:44 AM Re: It can never happen here! [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8546
Loc: North San Diego County
The fact that Putin or his buddies had Magnitsky killed and Prince Salmon had Kashaggi killed are just icing on the disastrous cake that is Trump. Invading Venezuela would be the height of stupidity, but nonetheless, I think Madura made unwise decisions for years that got the country to it's current state. There are plenty of other leaders of socialist states that have not screwed up so badly, and the US has done little or nothing to them. We only sanctioned their oil exports 12 days ago! Their troubles started long, long before that.

I suspect that this current US action is just Trump setting another fire, so he can claim to be a great fireman when he puts it out. (Like N. Korea)

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#310841 - 02/10/19 02:41 PM Re: It can never happen here! [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1503
NPR is on the radio framing the situation as economic mismanagement and a humanitarian crises. No where have the mentioned the economic seige that we've been applying as Chavez and Maduro have tried to shift their economy away from a single export economy to a self sustaining mixed economy. They've also invested their oil profits into education, healthcare, infrastructure. Most importantly their domestic food production. Growing food for themsves instead of having to import it from abroad (the US) with their petro profits .
That sounds like pretty good economic stewardship to me PIA. Would you prefer the existing neocolonialism thru debt peonage?
A very good article on the economic situation of Venezuala and the implications for the dollars status of the worlds reserve currency.
The history and implications of Venezuelas economic crises

But hey, it's socialist mismanagement and a humanitarian crises. It has nothing to do with their having the largest PROVEN oil reserves in the world and, besides, we got the Monroe doctrine on our side so let's do this thing!...

USA! USA! USA!


Edited by chunkstyle (02/10/19 02:42 PM)

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#310842 - 02/10/19 03:10 PM Re: It can never happen here! [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1503
I apologize for bringing up any history that happenned more than 12 days ago

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#310850 - 02/11/19 05:31 AM Re: It can never happen here! [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8546
Loc: North San Diego County
It's not really socialist mismanagement. It's just plain old mismanagement. Maduro didn't invest some of those oil profits back into keeping the oil flowing. It does little good having the world's greatest oil reserves if you can't get it out of the ground and into the tanker ships. I think spending a large chunk of the oil money on education, agriculture, health care, etc. is a great idea. Spending 100% of it on those things is mismanagement. He's killed the goose that laid the golden egg, so everybody could have roast goose.

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#310851 - 02/11/19 04:31 PM Re: It can never happen here! [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16741
It is far more complicated than you allege, chunk, and the reliance on single-miscreant arguments, once again, undercuts otherwise valid points. The Counterfactpunch article is good example. It is largely based on coulda-shoulda-woulda premises and almost entirely devoid of factual support. It's not that it couldn't have done so, just that it didn'a.

For example, it notes that Venezuela doesn't refine is own oil (not entirely true) and blames that on greedy unnamed oily-garchs. What it doesn't note is, that while Venezuela has huge oil reserves, its oil is the lowest grade in the world, thick and sludgy, the hardest to refine. Nor does it note that the foreign oil producers were rightfully concerned about seizure of their assets (which occurred). Nor that Rosnef acquired control of many of those assets.
Quote:
Venezuela’s dwindling production has reduced the country’s influence across Latin America. Where Venezuela once provided subsidized oil to neighbors, now it needs to hoard all it produces in order to be able to pay bondholders, as well as China and Russia, which have loaned almost $69 billion in the past decade in exchange for oil.
Venezuela’s Decline From Oil Powerhouse to Poorhouse
to Madhouse
(Bloomberg BusinessWeek); How Venezuela Struck it Poor (Foreign Policy).

That last citation gives a great overview of how the current conditions developed. Blaming it all on foreign governments is like blaming the mailman for your bills. The reality is much more complex.

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#310867 - 02/11/19 09:19 PM Re: It can never happen here! [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1503
I never said it was uncomplicated and believed I referenced the Monroe Doctrine as a reference point to our involvement Latin America.
Miscreant? Whatever.
Here's another counterpunch article that supports your assertions of neglect and abuse of Venezuela's oil industry under Chavez and Modero: Critique of Left wing support on Venezuela

But one could say the same of your Bloomberg and ForiegnPolicy articles NWP. Can you really say that our foriegn policy is not coupled to our economic strategy? To say that our foriegn policy is not focused on oil? What about Hudson's economic analysis was incorrect? Did Chavez not seek to set up a lending scheme to challenge US dominated IMF? I recall that proposal at the time it was introduced to other Latin American countries.

It's amazing how Libs will fall in line over 'humanitarian crises' and back military intervention. Even siding with the despised agent of Russia. Somehow that same indignation doesn't get equal treatment to other areas of the world like, say, Yemen or Flint. Nor does it have much memory of past Fascist despots we've installed in countries around the world. But give em a socialist and watch the 'fiscally conservative, socially liberal' start tearing their shirts off at the inhumanity taking place over there.

I think Chavez made the mistake of going in on state capitalism myself. Let's see what overt or covert intervention brings to the place. Can't think of what could go wrong. Hope your right cuz it looks like this grift won't be bloodless. Not that it matters much

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