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#314409 - 08/28/19 11:27 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Senator Hatrack (I do like that name) what you did is read something into my comment that isn't there. I just implied that capitalism, despite your extreme bias toward it, is very likely not the sole reason for the improved living conditions of the world. To understand my comments about capitalism it would help if you could look at capitalism while recognizing your bias for it.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#314417 - 08/29/19 12:14 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? (Vox). Again, a lengthy, but readable, discussion of a big idea. It's really the difference between Ocasio-Cortez' and Elizabeth Warren's visions of liberalism.

We've had several threads about new economic thinking and how broken capitalism is. This encapsulates many of them.

I would much rather have broken capitalism than working socialism.

In another thread someone said that a source I used is questionable. VOX is not questionable, it is an extremely biased and therefore unreliable source!
In other words, "I'd rather not read it, my mind is made up"? Yes, you use questionable sources, but I still read them. THEN I laugh and make fun of them.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#314419 - 08/29/19 12:19 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Quote:

Let’s put that to a test. As a Classical Liberal, do you believe that free markets will always produce the best results, without the need for regulations to correct for collateral damage? For example, I’m thinking of the Berkeley Pit in Butte, Montana. Did the mining company that created, and profited from, this environmental disaster ever pay to fix the problems it caused, or did it externalize the cost?

Thousands of snow geese die in toxic lake


There has not, never has been, and never will be a completely free market. Since there never has been a completely free market the situation you attempting to use to condemn free markets does not work. Then the idea of "externalizing" the cost of the environmental disaster you mentioned is BS. Every single company's income to pay all of the costs of doing business; whether they are payroll, research, advertising, taxes, buying raw materiel, or production, come from its customers. Since no business has a penny unless it gets it from their customers of course any and all costs are not "externalized." How can INcome possibly be EXternalized? It can't!
Um, you do realize you didn't address the question at all? Just checking. Cost Externalizing (Wikipedia). I'd suggest this as a start.

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#314421 - 08/29/19 12:26 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Yes, Classical Liberal free market capitalism is a train wreck.

That "train wreck" has improved the world's standard of living. Look at what the world was like before 1776, when Adam Smith wrote The Wealth of Nations, to what is like now. Would anyone want to go back to living as people did then? No, the real "train wreck" is socialism. In socialist countries people lined up to buy bread. In capitalist countries there lines of bread to choose from.
A Capitalist Breadline.

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#314422 - 08/29/19 12:31 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
:ohsnap:
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#314426 - 08/29/19 12:42 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
My last several posts were intended to make a point, my friend Hatrack. It is that you make broad generalizations both for and against ideas without responding substantively. Capitalism is a form of market enterprise, where the markets are defined into certain categories. It is a generalization of a method of organizing an economy and a shorthand to represent various elements of the system. Socialism is also a generalization of concepts of government providing for or controlling aspects of an economy. Neither form of economy exists in the real world, anywhere, in a pure form, or ever has.

Externality is a concept familiar to all economists in any discussion of capitalism and market economies. It is not always considered a bad thing. For example, the siting of a facility in a community has "externalities" unassociated with the actual production of the goods/service marketed by the company. On the positive side, the wages paid to workers, and expenses of the enterprise circulated in the community (e.g., lumber bought to build the facility) are positive externalities, just as the pollution, burdens placed on local infrastructure, and such, are negative externalities. Pretending that they don't exist is not rational nor consistent with discussion of the costs and benefits of capitalism as a system. Surely you actually recognize that?

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#314438 - 08/29/19 01:41 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Yes, Classical Liberal free market capitalism is a train wreck.

That "train wreck" has improved the world's standard of living. Look at what the world was like before 1776, when Adam Smith wrote The Wealth of Nations, to what is like now. Would anyone want to go back to living as people did then? No, the real "train wreck" is socialism. In socialist countries people lined up to buy bread. In capitalist countries there lines of bread to choose from.
A Capitalist Breadline.
The bread lines of the Great Depression are an anomaly in the history of capitalism.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314440 - 08/29/19 01:50 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
My last several posts were intended to make a point, my friend Hatrack. It is that you make broad generalizations both for and against ideas without responding substantively. Capitalism is a form of market enterprise, where the markets are defined into certain categories. It is a generalization of a method of organizing an economy and a shorthand to represent various elements of the system. Socialism is also a generalization of concepts of government providing for or controlling aspects of an economy. Neither form of economy exists in the real world, anywhere, in a pure form, or ever has.

When did I ever say that pure capitalism, or pure socialism, ever existed? I never did say that! But you are taken something I have never said to give a lecture as if you were some genius. You are not a genius. You are stuck in the ideological cocoon of liberalism. You obnoxious and condescending "lectures" are one of the main reasons I had thought to leave the CHBRR. Unlike you I give the people here credit for knowing the difference between capitalism and socialism and that neither one has ever existed as pure socialism or capitalism.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314451 - 08/29/19 01:56 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
You never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity... or a point. How's the view from your high horse? I have an idea: rather than spend your type whinging about how holier-than-thou you think I am, you address the substance of the point?

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#314452 - 08/29/19 02:05 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The bread lines of the Great Depression are an anomaly in the history of capitalism.
Only in that in previous cycles the destitute were just left to starve. The point you so assiduously miss is that bread lines are not a product of socialism. They are more often a product of the business cycle.

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