Current Topics
Revenge of the Human Scum
by Greger
Today at 03:11 AM
What do words mean?
by Greger
Today at 02:14 AM
The Impeachment of Donald trump
by perotista
Today at 02:10 AM
And we're off and running!
by pondering_it_all
Today at 01:50 AM
RoundTable for Fall 2019
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 11:36 PM
Spam bot tsunami
by Jeffery J. Haas
Yesterday at 04:12 PM
POLL: Will Trump resign or stay and be impeached?
by perotista
11/16/19 02:25 AM
The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing
by Jeffery J. Haas
11/15/19 03:43 AM
Apparently Trump wants to buy the UK National Health Service
by pondering_it_all
11/15/19 01:33 AM
Trump required to admit guilt in using Trump Foundation as piggy-bank
by jgw
11/14/19 09:23 PM
Yet another Trump scam
by pdx rick
11/09/19 06:46 PM
Why don't the Dems fight back?
by jgw
11/08/19 09:54 PM
Never-Before-Seen Trump Tax Documents Show Major Inconsistencies
by pondering_it_all
11/06/19 05:03 AM
Ohio GOP charged with distributing phony sample ballots in election fraud
by pondering_it_all
11/06/19 05:00 AM
US budget deficit hits $984 billion, highest in 7 years
by jgw
11/05/19 08:22 PM
Republicans are publicly spreading the name of purported Ukraine whistle-blower
by pondering_it_all
11/05/19 04:48 AM
Often more accurate than polls
by pondering_it_all
11/05/19 04:29 AM
Public option vs Medicare for All
by pondering_it_all
11/05/19 04:27 AM
Why are the Democrats waiting?
by jgw
11/04/19 10:16 PM
MSNBC’s Touré: Romney Engaging In The ‘N.....izati
by logtroll
11/01/19 08:44 AM
Forum Stats
6283 Members
59 Forums
16734 Topics
292017 Posts

Max Online: 294 @ 12/06/17 12:57 AM
Google Adsense
Page 4 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
#310883 - 02/12/19 08:06 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2614
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
This is the reason we have Social Security, medicare, etc. We are forced to pay for them whether we like it or not. I have always had a problem with medicare as those payments are waaaaaaaaaaaay too small. Still, the republicans are making a serious run at both of them. As far as I can tell they have actually started to take out of the social security pot and are also taking 100 million a year out of medicare. (which is, incidentally, rarely reported)

Its really kinda interesting. I have conservative friends that will argue against Social Security because it takes away the individual's freedom to make the right decision themselves. The last figure I have heard, about the current crop of retirees, is that they may have as much as 13,000.00 set aside for their retirement. I also watched a show about a guy who was interviewed about this and he was asked how much he set aside (it was about 8,000.00) The he was asked about his lifestyle before retirement. He was making over 199,000.00 annually. He had a house, a vacation house, a sailboat and an airplane. He, basically, lived the good life. Now, however he is on social security. He was not happy on social security and wanted to know why he wasn't being paid more. He was, basically, clueless. Oh, he also consistently voted Republican and was proud of it.

I remember having a discussion about SS with a friend of mine. He said he saw no need for it as people, if given a chance would make the right decision. He was flat out wrong. I suggested he read the reports and stories when SS was being legislated that docu ented the people on the streets, etc. His observation was that they were demonstrating what happens when one doesn't make the right decisions and their problems are their own fault. He was, as far as I am concerned, dead flat wrong. I have seen what happens when there is no safety net, I saw it in Russia and also in India. Its not pretty and the republicans, as far as I can tell, want us to return to that time.

Top
#310909 - 02/13/19 09:19 AM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8879
Loc: North San Diego County
That "people would make the right decisions" argument is so provably wrong: They very obviously DON'T make the right decisions, because if they did they would have a fortune saved for their retirement by age 65, instead of shiny new car leases every year and $6 cups of coffee from Starbucks. Social Security is the bare minimum so you don't starve to death or have to beg on street corners. Paying into Social Security in the richest states at least gives you the option of retiring more comfortably in a poor state or foreign country. I would hate to depend on Social Security alone I paid in on a minimum wage job.

People might make the right decisions if we bothered to educate them, but we don't. That's why we desperately need Social Security.

Top
#310922 - 02/13/19 07:21 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2614
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I lost faith in the American electorate a very long time ago. The election of Jackass just sealed the deal for me. Since that happened 30+ percent of the electorate just keep on proving that they actually lack the will, or capacity, to actually act in their own best interest. Instead they are leaving it all up to Jackass. I wonder if this is how monarchies, dictatorships, etc. got started.

Its also been suggested (I think even books written) that when things are good people have a chance to think about things other than survival and problems develop. Its said, for instance, that when the Russia revolution of 1918 took place Russia had the biggest, and richest, economy in the world. As a result things were changing, for the better. The result was that they had a revolution.

Anyway, I support any initiative that force people to invest in their own best interest and Police, Firemen, Social Security and Medicare are certainly examples of that. As far as I am concerned Healthcare should also be in that column. On reflection I tend to like taxes that are earmarked for specific tasks as it works (regardless of what the naysayer liars have to say).

In my town we had a community swimming pool. It was getting elderly and the city was letting it sink into the earth with little or no help. Some of the local enthusiasts got together and convinced the community to split the swimming pool off from the rest of the city by giving the pool its own taxing district. When they took over they started to improve. You can no longer, for instance, smell any chlorine. They replaced all lighting too. That was the beginning and they actually cut their operating costs by almost 50%! Now they have plans to expand and they have the money to do that with too. I think this was probably a very good example of 'social responsibility' in action. We have a pile of righteous Republicans in town and, as far as I can tell, they all supported this whole thing. My suspicion is that nobody actually told the this was a kindofa socialist endeavor.

Anyway..............

Top
#310927 - 02/13/19 10:02 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15654
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I lost faith in the American electorate a very long time ago.

It was George W Bush's re-election that did it for me. Thugs get supported by thugs and everyone else is bullied into going along to the obvious detriment of all.
Perhaps one of the strangest ironies in this Trump administration is that the single cause his wife, our First Lady, Slovenian immigrant Melania Knavs Trump embraced was bullying.
Quote:

Its said, for instance, that when the Russia revolution of 1918 took place Russia had the biggest, and richest, economy in the world. As a result things were changing, for the better. The result was that they had a revolution.


Have you given any thought to the possibility that for a LOT of people life had become so unbearable that they felt compelled to die in a revolution rather than live under tyranny?

And what sort of tyranny do you imagine it might have been in the richest most powerful nation in the world?

It was economic tyranny, my friend, the rich and powerful became too rich and powerful and took so much wealth that there was nothing left for everyone else.

There were a few rich people and a lot of hungry peasants.

This is a scene that has played out over and over and over.

Quote:
Anyway, I support any initiative that force people to invest in their own best interest and Police, Firemen, Social Security and Medicare are certainly examples of that. As far as I am concerned Healthcare should also be in that column. On reflection I tend to like taxes that are earmarked for specific tasks as it works

I couldn't agree more. Those are socialist endeavors rather than capitalist. The two work very well side by side. Just like your communist pool, everybody chips in and things get done. Everybody is happy in the end. That's the goal of socialism, for everybody to be healthy, happy, well educated and well paid. Doctors will still drive BMWs and street sweepers will drive beaters. But they'll both have roofs over their heads and plenty of food in the fridge, and when they get sick they can go to the doctor.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#310935 - 02/14/19 04:00 AM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8879
Loc: North San Diego County
Interesting drawing shows where the carbon is and how much flows into other compartments:

Carbon Cycle

It's complicated and burning fossil fuels is a small but steady flow. Even though much larger amounts of carbon move between plants and the atmosphere, and oceans and the atmosphere, those flows are about equal. The important part of it is we are adding 9 billion tons of carbon to the atmosphere, of which 3 billion moves into the soil and 2 billion moves into the ocean. If we cut off all of our carbon emissions, presumably those flows into the soil and oceans would continue, but slowly diminish over many years as less carbon was in the atmosphere.

Top
#310945 - 02/14/19 07:22 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2614
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I thought I would check my facts. The economy, in 1918 Russia was really, really bad. It was the end of WWI and that was disaster for Russia. I was flat out wrong about that one.

Basically, it had little to do with tyranny and rich people and a lot to do with a completely failed economy.

As far as "Socialist" endeavors are concerned. I tend to believe that they are "social" endeavors. Not all that sure about them being Socialist. We can battle over this all day, neither of us are going to change. I believe that there can be simple 'social' interactions that work and really need not be politicized.

Top
#310978 - 02/16/19 03:15 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   sad
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17154
Republicans like bogeymen, Democrats like facts. In support of both, Here's what the Green New Deal actually says (CNN).

Top
#310979 - 02/16/19 06:02 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: pondering_it_all]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2614
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Of course "people would make the right decisions" isn't right. My point is that conservatives do believe its right and true. Most conservatives I know (nary a Trumpite in that group) believe it and its always amazed me. They have a LOT of faith in the human race. My own thought is that its just not that easy to be a conservative!

I can't count the number of times somebody has told me stuff like; "If government just went away things would be a lot better!", and "Why can't government just leave everybody alone?"

Top
#310988 - 02/16/19 11:13 PM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14434
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Doctors will still drive BMWs and street sweepers will drive beaters. But they'll both have roofs over their heads and plenty of food in the fridge, and when they get sick they can go to the doctor.


That's how it was when I was growing up as a starving student during the tail end of the New Deal era.
My pickup truck was an old beater, my apartment was maybe 120 square feet if that, with a tiny bathroom and a kitchenette built into one wall with a two burner stove and fridge combo, and I had no luxuries whatsoever, but I could eat and put gas in my beater and pay my $100 a month rent thanks to my minimum wage dishwasher job.

It was "enough" to get by and I was able to better my circumstances and move up the ladder.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#310994 - 02/17/19 03:15 AM Re: The Green New Deal, explained [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8879
Loc: North San Diego County
In 69 I was 17. I had a high school diploma, an assistant job in a research lab, an apartment, and a live-in girlfriend. I was in hog-heaven!

Top
Page 4 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >

Who's Online
1 registered (NW Ponderer), 23 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Karen Haas, Snarky_Politics, Moot, Ikari, perotista
6283 Registered Users
A2