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#314534 - 09/01/19 12:22 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
To sell an idea what works best is to present it by not talking down to the person you are presenting it to. Very few of the liberals here do that. They have a tendency to lecture people in their belief that what they believe is what everyone believes. That is definitely not true. Many of the replies I have received here have been condescending lectures that could not sell a glass of water to man on the Mohave desert.

This why I started the topic "Closed-Mind Armwrestle". Hatrack isn't wrong, but he is doing exactly what he is condemning. How do we get past that to real discussions?

The true 'sacred' cornerstone of RR is the ability to discuss topics with integrity, facts, and civility. It may even be more important than the sanctity of the Roundtable.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#314535 - 09/01/19 01:08 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10019
Loc: North San Diego County
There are opinions and then there are facts. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions. but not to their own facts. Statements like "Trump has never lied" are just pure denial of facts, not opinion. The problem (at least for most conservatives) is that most of the people here at RR are very educated, and very smart, so they have no problem seeing through opinions stated as facts.

I like to use factual arguments, but I'm not at all close-minded. I have lots of conservative friends and we get along just fine. I also have clearly insane relatives and friends. Facts don't matter to them, but facts have a way of catching up with you and biting you in the ass.

I have supported a lot of conservative ideas throughout my life. For example, I have never sided with the USSR or Russia on much of anything. I have never "been in love" with the leadership of North Korea. I know our intelligence agencies have done some bad things, but I have never taken Putin's positions over their's. I have never believed that it's smart or okay to cheat on your taxes, peep at under-aged (or any) girls in a dressing room, hire prostitutes, cheat on your wife, or grab women by the pussy just because you hold some power over them.

Do none of these things matter to conservatives anymore? Or are "conservatives" not really conservative anymore?

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#314543 - 09/01/19 03:20 AM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: logtroll]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
To sell an idea what works best is to present it by not talking down to the person you are presenting it to. Very few of the liberals here do that. They have a tendency to lecture people in their belief that what they believe is what everyone believes. That is definitely not true. Many of the replies I have received here have been condescending lectures that could not sell a glass of water to man on the Mohave desert.

This why I started the topic "Closed-Mind Armwrestle". Hatrack isn't wrong, but he is doing exactly what he is condemning. How do we get past that to real discussions?

The true 'sacred' cornerstone of RR is the ability to discuss topics with integrity, facts, and civility. It may even be more important than the sanctity of the Roundtable.
I am guilty of what I have condemned. But compared to those with whom I've had discussions it is like comparing a gang of teenagers with the Mafia.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314589 - 09/01/19 06:53 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16952
Loc: Florida
True senator, how can we get around this impasse?
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Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#314592 - 09/01/19 07:12 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
I paid good money to learn all the big words I know. wink I'll try to be better. respect

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#314595 - 09/01/19 07:26 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
I am very passionate about my beliefs, and opinionated to boot (just ask my son). But, that doesn't mean I'm close-minded. Those of you who have been here a long time have seem my mind change. (Ahem, not like that! shocked ). I'm persuadable.

Indeed, many of my views are quite "conservative": rah-rah patriotism, mom, Apple pie, the flag, individual rights, limited government, oaths mean something, capitalism is useful, but so is social awareness, etc. My take, however, may be different than others. Government is limited by substance, not size. Equal opportunity is a fundamental right, and that includes marriage, living openly, and personal body integrity. You have a right to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is, but not to impose it on others. To be persuaded requires respect, not insults, and facts, not opinions.

Now that I've ranted, though, maybe this belongs in that other thread...

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#314604 - 09/01/19 07:59 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Greger]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: Greger
True senator, how can we get around this impasse?

Try looking in the mirror. I did.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314606 - 09/01/19 08:04 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
NW Ponderer, a Classical Liberal believes that our government should limited in both substance and size.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#314612 - 09/01/19 08:14 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42981
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I paid good money to learn all the big words I know. wink I'll try to be better. respect

...and they're worth every penny, spent. grin
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#314615 - 09/01/19 08:18 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42981
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
NW Ponderer, a Classical Liberal believes that our government should limited in both substance and size.

I hate to sound like a broken record. Hmm

...but...

Words change meaning over time. Go with the flow...mang. It's all good. smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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