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#311487 - 03/12/19 02:59 AM Re: Why are Republicans So Afraid of AOC and Omar? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1403
Your right. I do use neoliberal ideology as a pejorative. I consider it to be a self serving political ideology that appeals to a small slice of the electorate and has led to some very dumb ideas of governance.

I'm looking at the Democratic neoliberal turn starting with Dollar Bill Clinton and the Democratic Leadership Counsel. Is that specific enough of a context over what time frame of Neoliberalism I'm against?

What political ideology doesn't transform or change over time. Suddenly, this simple processional reality makes an ideology a figment? HAR!

I don't give a toss about the libertarians and their ilk. My hate is with those in the Democratic party. Yeah, ideologies change party brands. This is not news.

" Democratic positions don't poll well in those States, but relative to the Republicans, he is way further left than they are. Manchin voted against the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, (as did all Democrats in the House and Senate). He also voted against other Trump-supported legislation, including bills to repeal or replace parts of the Affordable Care Act, and others. Tracking Congress In The Age Of Trump (FiveThirtyEight). He may only be 40% Democrat, but he's 100% not Republican."

That's as clear as mud. You presume to define what 'Left' is. You should recall that Ojeda, a brush cut sporting populist had managed the largest point gain of democrats post 2016 and it happened in W.Virginia. That was before he flamed out with a poorly conceived run at the white house.
There's also the pesky fact of one of the first DSA victories also occurred in neighboring Virginia.

But don't let those inconvenient facts get in the way of whats POSSIBLE.

'Power concedes nothing without a demand'- Douglas.

Neoliberal democrats have been managing what's possible within the artificial boundaries of what's acceptable to it's donor class. Not what's acceptable to the public and has broad popular support.

What you see as uncompromising has hardly been that. 30 years of pulling the lever for odious corporate schills while fuming at the party's rightward drift has taught me plenty about compromise and political realities. Not buying 'Third Way' ideology any longer is not uncompromising but simply a matter of recognizing the failure for what it is and who it rests with.

I want Third Way neoliberalism irrelevant for generations.

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#311489 - 03/12/19 01:27 PM Re: Why are Republicans So Afraid of AOC and Omar? [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9009
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I admit the sharp and protracted dialogue among my many esteemed colleagues here (sounds like a speech at a stuffy English Society meeting) is quite unsettling. A presumption is that the primary disagreement is less concerning of what should be, and more concerning of how to get there from here. Speaking generally, one side fears that aggressive action for change will hand another four years to the Regressive tribe to further deepen our collective chaos; the other side correctly notes that a slow change (if things change at all) is not sufficient response to what has evolved into a crisis situation.

Let's use climate change as a metaphor for political change (it has fewer vague intellectual terms to be confused about). Human effects on climate have been on a downward slide for a long time. The reasons for this are due to largely mindless pursuits of fantasies of wealth and comfort, and indulgence in wasteful excess. Yet we are behaving like addicts to our lifestyle(s) and refuse to enter into rational treatment. Now the effects of climate change, long seen coming, are appearing, and scientists are predicting fairly specific points of no return in the near future. What should we do? What can we do in such a short timeframe? There is no longer confidence in technological fixes, because we have been predicting those for a very long time and yet the slope of decline has done nothing but steepen.

What historically happens is collapse of the system - usually drought or famine (in the case of the environment) or violent revolution (in the case of governance). Whether issues of environmental or political circumstances, humans seem destined to change via collapse. I would hope that there are examples of corrections that were handled by conscious and rational adjustments, but none are coming to my mind. If anyone can point out examples, they would be well worth examining for any clues on how to sort our current growing chaos into something manageable.

If there is any useful lesson in the rise to power of King Kon, it's that selling a concept to probably more than half of all humans is more a matter of appealing to base instinct rather than through facts and rationality. And persuading the more rational and intelligent among us to take meaningful action is about as dismal a prospect in itself. Trump, and many of the exceedingly strange leaders of the Regressive movement, are very clever at manipulating base instincts, and one of their most powerful tools is the willingness to lie and distort reality as a means to preserve loyalty. Progressives (I hope as a general thing) abhor lying and distortion and cannot use such as a weapon to fight back. In any case, to do so would be counter productive and only serve to hasten the descent into chaos.

What to do? A few thoughts are: stop being trapped by excessive deference to the clever but unethical opposition. Pelosi rose a great deal in my estimation by taking a hard line against Trump in the shutdown skirmish; take over the narrative and de-fang the chaos that the Regressives have brought to language (which even has us arguing among ourselves) - I wasn't kidding when suggesting that we define the political/economic system of our vision and name it Americanism. Throw out Liberalism, Capitalism, Socialism, Conservatism as the moldy old boxes that they are - take those words out of the conversation.

Here is a quote that stared me on this ramble:

Quote:
"The advice that I give," said Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. ďStop trying to navigate systems of power and start building your own power."
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#311490 - 03/12/19 01:32 PM Re: Why are Republicans So Afraid of AOC and Omar? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16723
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
My hate is with those in the Democratic party.
Really? I hadn't noticed. But, then again, that's not what this thread is about, is it? Not in the title or the OP.

I realized the source of my irritation! The constant, unremitting harping on "neoliberal" Democrats forms a pattern of diversion as relentless as Trump lies. Whatever the thread topic, we keep getting dragged back to your favorite whipping horse, and the cycle starts over again. I've become acutely aware of the tactic when I started observing another discussion forum. (Trolls are a constant presence there.) Maybe I shouldn't say "tactic", here, because I don't think is malicious with you, just compulsive.

It's not my favorite topic, nor is it the topic of the thread. I see that now. I'll react less now. Thanks for helping me clarify my thoughts and practice.

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#311492 - 03/12/19 01:42 PM Re: Why are Republicans So Afraid of AOC and Omar? [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16723
Wow, log, well said. Now that is a RANT!

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#311493 - 03/12/19 02:13 PM Re: Why are Republicans So Afraid of AOC and Omar? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16723
Following your example, my friend, what inspires me about AOC and strikes the fear of god into Republicans (hence the over-the-top criticisms) is that she has done exactly what they fear: she has coupled real, progressive policy to a sharp and effective sales pitch. The same can be said of Beto O'Rourke and why they have launched ads against him even before he announces his candidacy. He was a very effective messenger in Texas and they know they are a lot more vulnerable elsewhere.

AOC has hit on a formula, and it is working. The Green New Deal is now THE topic. It's pithy, it's understandable, it's substantive and it can encompass so much discussion that it can take up the bandwidth. "REAL solutions for the REAL world!" There are so many aspects of the plan that pundits and scholars can debate it until the cows come home (or, at least until we sequester their "emissions"). Every 2020 (Democratic) candidate is talking about it, and taking positions. They have to. Its very breadth makes it necessary - climate change, income inequality, jobs, security, healthcare. That's brilliant. No wonder she has them wetting themselves! (Yes, chunk, paleo-Dems, too.)

Even if only one tenth of the contents of the GND make it into legislation, it will have affected major change. I've always equated political change to a football field, and the two sides are always trying to get the ball to the other end zone. What matters most is which way the ball is going. We progressives may be playing deep in our own field, but the Dems got the ball back after making a 4th down stop in 2018. AOC wants to throw deep for an explosive play, but Pelosi is used to running the ball and has become predictable, so the Republicans are expecting the run. AOC knows what a big chunk play will do to their defense, and Pelosi just moved her blockers in to protect the quarterback. The receivers are going deep in 2020... Go Green! Go Green! Go Green!

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#311494 - 03/12/19 02:53 PM Re: Why are Republicans So Afraid of AOC and Omar? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1403
O.K.,
So I'm a lyin troll.
Fair enough.

I simply broadened this discussion of 'why republicans hate AOC and Omar' and included a category of Dems.

I named what category of Dems 'I' believe she is referring to.

It didn't go over well.

I said the N word.

NWP got triggered. I asked him to defend. He said I'm a broken record yelling the 'N' word that doesn't exist according to him.

The criteria he gave is either demonstratably false or could be applied to any 'brand' of poilitics and fail NWP's criteria, IMO.

Paleoliberals got mentioned (Wilson?), Paleoconservatives were not (gunna say Pat Buchanon here) but neoliberals?

Doesn't exist.

Hmmm....

Sorry to have strayed from those pesky imposed boundaries of the Thread Title. I'm sorry to have not seen myself being the major contributor to this offense here.

I hope your Triplre Bottom Line investment pays off too, Logtroll.

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#311495 - 03/12/19 03:48 PM Re: Why are Republicans So Afraid of AOC and Omar? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16723
Oh come on, chunk, I specifically said you were not a troll! I don't think it is a tactic, just a tic. I just recognized the effect of topics being diverted, and I was trying to get back to the subject.

To help with that, I started a new thread: What is Neoliberalism?

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#311717 - 03/25/19 03:24 PM Re: Why are Republicans So Afraid of AOC and Omar? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1403
It still stands that a lot of incoming fire is coming from 'friendly fire' and not just republicans...
That's what sucks so much more about Democrats. They are always willing to do the job of Republicans. Let em work for it at least.

The Democratic Party.... getting their ordoliberal groove on sincce 1971!

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#311723 - 03/25/19 10:56 PM Re: Why are Republicans So Afraid of AOC and Omar? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1403
More same ol same ol democratic lanyards carrying water for the far right by punching left.

We must limit choices to create diversity...

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#311745 - 03/27/19 06:31 PM Re: Why are Republicans So Afraid of AOC and Omar? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9009
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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