Current Topics
The Impeachment of Donald trump
by Jeffery J. Haas
20 minutes 52 seconds ago
Dear last-ditch hardcore Trump Nation
by Jeffery J. Haas
Today at 04:19 AM
FISA Inspector General Horowitz
by pondering_it_all
Today at 02:15 AM
Organic Socialism
by chunkstyle
Yesterday at 10:43 PM
All or Nothing OR My Way or the Highway
by chunkstyle
Yesterday at 10:28 PM
The Departed - 2019
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 09:00 PM
ocean cleanup
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 07:56 PM
Remember Pearl Harbor
by Greger
Yesterday at 07:56 PM
A Southerner Moves up North
by Greger
Yesterday at 05:59 PM
Duncan Hunter takes a dive.
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 07:07 AM
Pacific Northwest Weather
by pdx rick
Yesterday at 03:01 AM
RoundTable for Fall 2019
by pondering_it_all
12/08/19 08:05 PM
Global warming predictions
by logtroll
12/08/19 03:00 PM
Bloomberg: Xi Jinping is not a dictator
by Jeffery J. Haas
12/07/19 06:35 AM
(NYT) I worked for Alex Jones-I regret it
by Jeffery J. Haas
12/06/19 11:55 PM
The Trump/Biden/Ukraine thing
by Greger
12/06/19 06:24 PM
just arrived
by Greger
12/06/19 03:18 AM
"His Name Was Hunter S. Thompson"
by Jeffery J. Haas
12/06/19 02:30 AM
Star Trek 40 oz on repeat.
by Hamish Howl
12/05/19 01:37 PM
My meeting with Jeffrey
by Hamish Howl
12/02/19 06:26 PM
Forum Stats
6286 Members
59 Forums
16755 Topics
292762 Posts

Max Online: 294 @ 12/06/17 12:57 AM
Google Adsense
Page 22 of 44 < 1 2 ... 20 21 22 23 24 ... 43 44 >
Topic Options
#311418 - 03/07/19 11:54 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15781
Loc: Florida
Sure it's easy to cheat! But that cash came from somewhere and it's going somewhere. The last and the next transaction will fold it back into the digital world. The tax is also so small it's not worth fussing over. Unless you're buying and selling a zillion things a day, like Jeff Bezos....ya know?
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#311432 - 03/08/19 08:35 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: pondering_it_all]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2638
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The reason I think EVERYBODY should pay taxes is pretty simple. First, the poor is a group that is not even noted for voting. My thought has always been that if you have no skin in the game then why bother? I used to have a couple businesses that hired a lot of the poor. Every election I got them all together and explained a simple fact; "if you are poor you are going to get screwed. Politicians know which groups vote and those are the groups,that get paid attention to". I never told them how to vote only that they should. I failed miserably.

Capital gains - you don't pay the same taxes as on normal income, you pay less. I know the logic but disagree. Income remains income. There are lots of those kinds of things in our tax code. Hell, the last so called "tax break" have some interesting examples.

The logic behind depreciation is simple. Its a cost of doing business and our tax code allows us to take these costs off before arriving at how much we owe. Over the years this has moved around, ie. how fast can you depreciate, is depreciation considered the same as buying a truck used in business, etc.

I can't go into all this stuff in detail but its just taxes and the 'deals' that help the businessman, investor, etc. The problem with these things (deductions) is that they can be pesky. It really boils down to whether you pay taxes on the net income or the gross income. The real problem is the simple fact is that we now have a system which is at least as complex as any religious book and actually contributes to our economy (accountants, bookeepers, attorneys, etc). I wonder what would happen if we had a system where business had standard deductions based on business category. Lobbyists would have a field day I fear.

Microsecond stock trades come under the heading of "Because they can". As long as we have markets its gonna happen. That's one reason I want them taxed. We could call it "Microtax" <g>

Anyway............





Edited by jgw (03/08/19 08:41 PM)

Top
#311441 - 03/09/19 07:26 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9585
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Quote:
The New Deal Wasn’t What You Think
If we are going to fund a Green New Deal, we need to acknowledge how the original actually worked.

How the New Deal was paid for...
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

Top
#311459 - 03/11/19 02:00 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9585
Loc: One of the Mexicos
One word descriptions:

Capitalism = competition
Socialism = collaboration
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

Top
#311463 - 03/11/19 02:57 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17184
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Quote:
The New Deal Wasn’t What You Think
If we are going to fund a Green New Deal, we need to acknowledge how the original actually worked.

How the New Deal was paid for...
What are you, logtroll, some kind of neoliberal! (That's a really good article that makes any excellent point.) FDR's primary focus was on leveraging capital for public good, and it worked brilliantly. Yes, it saved capitalism from itself, but it also saved socialism, making it mainstream. What conservatives have lost sight of is that the nation really hasn't changed that much since then. They've just been fooled into thinking it otherwise. As Lincoln said, "You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time." Conservatives fall into the seconds category.

Top
#311467 - 03/11/19 03:40 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9585
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
What are you, logtroll, some kind of neoliberal!

I confess, I have been trying to make capitalism work for achieving triple-bottom-line (TBL) objectives, but it is very difficult. Neither the rules nor the mental attitudes (even of liberals) for investing are a good fit for a people/planet/profit opportunity at a local level.

I have concluded that practically everyone is of two minds - literally - when it comes to money. One mind, of the philanthropist, will give money to good causes and expect nothing in return... even failure is tolerated as at least being an attempt to do good. But that same erstwhile philanthropist, when presented with investing the same amount of money in good deeds close to home that actually might return some dollars, will switch to a mind full of fear of the risk of loss.

I have been soliciting investors since last July to join the Trollworks LLC, for the purpose of raising the money to build what we call a Biochar+Energy Sys3, a pyrolysis machine that will take waste biomass, dry it, and make pelletized feedstock that can be stored and transported (holy grails of the energy markets) for use in pyrolyzers that will heat buildings. Both pyrolysis steps create heat and char, two products of substantial monetary value, and even greater associated TBL values. The system will sequester a pound of CO2 out of the atmosphere into the soil for every pound burned, and regenerate soil productivity in the process.

The machine in question is already under a three year lease contract to a grant funded pilot project, which will pay 150% more than its cost, operating just four months each year. Sounds like a no-brainer investment opportunity to me, especially for folks concerned about climate change. "Get paid for CO2 drawdown? Are you f*_king kidding me??"

Yet.... I have secured four investors so far, all friends of mine for whom trust in me as a person is not an issue - however trust in me to not lose their investment is an issue. I have been working on four more potential investors since last September, all climate and social activists who live in Colorado where a second pilot project is being developed. Basically the same scenario, the Sys 3 would be leased to the project for four months a year, doubling the ROI! But those folks, who do not know me so well, are perseverating over minutia in the company documents. Did I mention that the price of a membership is in the ballpark of what all of these people give away to good causes in the same period of time?

All of the same people have their life savings in 401Ks and normal investment vehicles where they generally know neither the managers nor exactly what their money is being used for (often it is being used by companies who are causing climate change).

I might actually have to borrow the money to complete the pre-leased Sys3.

Strange, ain't it?
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

Top
#311470 - 03/11/19 04:27 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15781
Loc: Florida
Maybe you should market yourself as a non-profit dedicated to preserving the planet and seeking donations for the cause.

Kickstarter might get you a few bucks from some of the save the world types with $2-5 to spend...

I might even be tempted to send $5 your way which goes entirely against my nothing for nothing investment and philanthropic policy.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#311473 - 03/11/19 05:46 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9585
Loc: One of the Mexicos
I appreciate the ideas - I have looked at Kickstarter but it's not without its drawbacks. I'm actually confident that the track I am on will work out okay.

The underlying point of my post is to shed a little light on the embedded psychological and cultural issues that are part and parcel of these things we casually call "socialism" and "capitalism" and "neoliberalism", etc.

When you get right down in the mud, we are dealing with "peopleism", not to be confused with "humanism". crazy
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

Top
#311474 - 03/11/19 06:10 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9585
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Here's an interesting new approach to venture capital, one that applied to in 2016 but was rejected because the company "wasn't developed enough". I am about to apply again...

Quote:
Tin Shed Ventures is Patagonia’s corporate venture capital fund, which invests in start-ups that offer solutions to the environmental crisis. Originally launched as $20 Million and Change in May 2013, Tin Shed Ventures partners with businesses focused on building renewable energy infrastructure, practicing regenerative organic agriculture, conserving water, diverting waste and creating sustainable materials. The Tin Shed name is rooted in Patagonia’s history. In 1957, a young climber named Yvon Chouinard decided to make his own reusable hardware. Using supplies procured from a junkyard, he taught himself how to blacksmith. By 1970, Chouinard Equipment had become the largest supplier of climbing hardware in North America—produced in a tin shed in Ventura, California. But there was a problem. The company’s gear was damaging the rock as popular routes had to endure repeated hammering of steel pitons. So Chouinard decided to phase out of the piton business, even though it comprised 70 percent of the company’s sales at the time. He introduced an alternative: aluminum chocks that could be wedged in the rock and removed by hand, rather than hammered and left behind. The audacious move worked. Within a few months, the new chocks sold faster than they could be made. Patagonia has since expanded from a climbing hardware company into a global outdoor apparel brand with $800 million in sales while maintaining a strict commitment to sustainability in its products and supply chain. Tin Shed Ventures is funding the next generation of responsible business leaders who share these core values.
We started the fund because we felt existing models for start-up capital were broken. Traditional investors tend to focus on short-term growth and profit, then quickly flip the companies in which they invest. We take a completely different approach to investing. We place environmental and social returns on equal footing with financial returns and provide long-term, patient capital that helps to support forward-thinking entrepreneurs for the long haul. Overall, our aim is to support like-minded start-ups that embody Patagonia’s mission to “Build the best product, cause no unnecessary harm, and use business to inspire and implement solutions to the environmental crisis.”
_________________________
You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

Top
#311483 - 03/11/19 11:15 PM Re: The Debate: Is America’s future capitalist or socialist? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17184
Yes, it is. This is the sort of project the Green New Deal should support.

Top
Page 22 of 44 < 1 2 ... 20 21 22 23 24 ... 43 44 >

Who's Online
2 registered (Jeffery J. Haas, 1 invisible), 39 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Keridan, Chagos, Integritas, Ashevajak, Hamish Howl
6286 Registered Users
A2