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#311589 - 03/15/19 06:21 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16680
LOL - that's what happens when I start a post before bed, and post it in the morning. Greger made my point for me. My reaction is strong because these were my studies in college - history and political science/economics. That was at the time the war over the words was strong.

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#311590 - 03/15/19 07:00 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14708
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I dunno Gregor. I find it difficult to follow Mudge's historical context.

This quote from the interviewer seemed to capture neoliberalism in a nutshell...
Quote:
Since the late 1970s political parties all over the world have embraced a politics of free markets, privatization, and financialization. While promising freedom, this political project — typically referred to as neoliberalism — has brought record levels of economic inequality and significant democratic retrenchment, particularly in the advanced capitalist world.


I didn't mean to bring more confusion to the topic, I'm just trying to get clear on who you are talking about when you address neoconservatism.
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#311594 - 03/15/19 10:49 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16680
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
I dunno Gregor. I find it difficult to follow Mudge's historical context.

This quote from the interviewer seemed to capture neoliberalism in a nutshell...
Quote:
Since the late 1970s political parties all over the world have embraced a politics of free markets, privatization, and financialization. While promising freedom, this political project — typically referred to as neoliberalism — has brought record levels of economic inequality and significant democratic retrenchment, particularly in the advanced capitalist world.


I didn't mean to bring more confusion to the topic, I'm just trying to get clear on who you are talking about when you address neoconservatism.
(I think I've brought enough confusion to the topic... and I started it! LOL)

It is precisely because " a politics of free markets, privatization, and financialization" is contrary to the concept of neoliberal and because it is "typically referred to as neoliberalism" that I get my undies in a bundle. It's defamation in the guise of a label.

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#311605 - 03/17/19 03:38 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1367
I'm not sure what the debate is about here with the term 'Neoliberalism'. It's generally referred to today as a a deference to market forces over public space and goods.
In a way, NWP, your argument reminds me of a time when the Xerox corporation was waging a campaign to stop people from using the term 'Xerox', as in 'go xerox this page for me'. They were trying to protect a brand identity and differentiate that consumer might mistake the minolta, ricoh or cannon copiers for being a xerox machine.
Everybody knew what it meant and could care less about the proper use of the word Xerox with the exception of some mid-level marketing managers working at Xerox.

Yeah, sure, this form of political ideology begat that and that ideology begat this school of political philosophy. All seem to have been formed at one time or another since the ideas and practice of capitalism were introduced to societies as a force for change and challenge to the old feudal order. It was generally though that capitalism was a force for change and progress by elevating the concept of liberation of the individual over strict feudal social convention thru capitalism. Some Scotsman wrote a book about the goodness of everyone pursuing their own individual interest being a great way forward and would allow for society to improve mankind, etc. Correct?

So how's that working out? What does the empirical evidence say to any and all of this conceptual argument? This drive toward a market oriented society and politics?

Inequality, as Piketty has pointed out, is higher now than at any time in human history.
That means that wealth and political power are now more concentrated.

But I am specifically arguing about the forces of capital that give lavishly to a certain democrat politician that, suprise, suprise, happens to be in broad alignment with the interest of those contributors. By implication, that may mean we are less of a democracy now than at any time in U.S. history? Sure, go vote but who you get to vote for is decided on by capital.

So, yeah, I'm talking about the neoliberal democrats as critics have called them and the turn of the democratic party, towards capitol forces since the 70's, as has been documented and described by scholars such as Chomsky, Harvey, Frank, etc.
Would it help to call them Ordoliberals? Would that end the confusion?


Edited by chunkstyle (03/17/19 04:45 PM)

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#311611 - 03/17/19 07:11 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14708
Loc: Florida
And suddenly NWPs panties are in a twist again...

Quote:
I'm talking about the neoliberal democrats as critics have called them and the turn of the democratic party, towards capitol forces since the 70's, as has been documented and described by scholars such as Chomsky, Harvey, Frank, etc.

Cause he seems to be saying there is a different and opposite form of Neo Liberalism which may or may not have been documented sooner? And holds the titular rights to the definition of the word but I'm not sure he's given us the definition exactly.

Quote:
But I am specifically arguing about the forces of capital that give lavishly to a certain democrat politician that, suprise, suprise, happens to be in broad alignment with the interest of those contributors. By implication, that may mean we are less of a democracy now than at any time in U.S. history?


Beto? Sure. Capital owns the media. I'm almost certain the media is going to give Beto special treatment and bourgeois gold will be flowing into his coffers. That's why I'm pegging him to win.

Less of a democracy now? I dunno, politics has always been crooked. But that inequality thing is getting to be a frightful problem.
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#311616 - 03/17/19 09:21 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13633
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

It was in the 1980s that the confusion came into the equation, when Friedman and other members coopted the name to describe their drastic use of tools such as austerity, balanced budgets and deregulation, all of which are inimical to the goals of neoliberalism. They are, essentially, libertarians.


That wouldn't be the least bit surprising, seeing as how fascists AND other totalitarians all OVER the spectrum have been fond of usurping and capturing the word "socialism" for what seems like forever, and when that won't do, they just coopt "democratic" instead.

If it weren't for patent and trademark infringement law, I'm sure every brown soft drink on the planet would try to call themselves "Coke", even if didn't taste anything like "The Real Thing".

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#311624 - 03/18/19 09:32 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16680
Here's a truth about me: I have a fetish about the proper use of words. I HATE the misuse of words. I get grumpy about misusing than, then; your you're; I can go on and on, iteratively. wink I get particularly grumpy when words are used for deception, something conservatives do constantly, from the naming of think tanks and lobbying groups to defaming opponents and disguising blatant racism with euphemisms and code words.

This falls in the last category. "Neoliberal" was a perfectly good, descriptive and accurate term for a school of economic thought. Then the conservatives went to work coopting, distorting and misusing it for their own nefarious purposes. Most infuriating of all, it worked!. Yes, I can't let it go, because it is so wrong. I've never let slavery, the holocaust, fascism or communism go go, either. What is wrong is wrong, and I can't accept it.

Now you all understand. smile

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#311625 - 03/18/19 10:00 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1367
I'm not sure what your one sentence definition of Neoliberalism is NWP, but I'm going to stick with 'it's a professional swindle' for now.

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#311626 - 03/18/19 10:33 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16680
"a socioeconomic model combining a free market capitalist economic system alongside social policies that establish both fair competition within the market and a welfare state."

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#311627 - 03/18/19 11:42 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8974
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
"Neoliberal" was a perfectly good, descriptive and accurate term for a school of economic thought. Then the conservatives went to work coopting, distorting and misusing it for their own nefarious purposes. Most infuriating of all, it worked!. Yes, I can't let it go, because it is so wrong. I've never let slavery, the holocaust, fascism or communism go go, either. What is wrong is wrong, and I can't accept it.

That's why I think we should define a proper system of economics and governance and label it "Americanism". It would be hard to corrupt it without being... well, unAmerican.
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