Current Topics
congress and the administration
by rporter314
Today at 03:28 AM
At ease, disease. Thar’s fungus amongus.
by pondering_it_all
Today at 01:51 AM
Roundtable for April 2019
by pondering_it_all
Today at 01:42 AM
The Mueller Report
by jgw
Yesterday at 08:24 PM
end is nigh
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 04:28 AM
Roe v. Wade Is Under Immediate Threat
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 04:21 AM
war and other stuff
by jgw
05/19/19 05:17 PM
The Passing Parade: Obituaries: 2019
by pondering_it_all
05/18/19 07:01 AM
Head of CFPB breaks ranks; tries to do job
by NW Ponderer
05/16/19 03:36 PM
Man kicked off Southwest flight for vodka joke: 'You can’t say anything to anyon
by Golem
05/15/19 10:42 PM
Is it too soon to be talking 2020?
by jgw
05/15/19 05:55 PM
Sucker Nation
by jgw
05/13/19 09:18 PM
Army Soldier Falls Into Hawaii's Kilauea Volcano After Straining For Better View
by pdx rick
05/09/19 03:05 AM
Sam
by Kaine
05/06/19 11:52 AM
Trump wanted to free illegal immigrants in sanctuary cities
by Jeffery J. Haas
05/03/19 07:57 PM
Impeach
by jgw
04/30/19 09:07 PM
White House birthday tweet for Melania becomes instant meme
by pdx rick
04/30/19 05:15 AM
Leader of armed militia that held migrants arrested on weapons charges
by pdx rick
04/27/19 12:51 PM
We Finally Learned What a Year in Space Did to Astronaut Scott Kelly's Body
by pondering_it_all
04/24/19 08:50 AM
I wonder............
by jgw
04/22/19 06:55 PM
Forum Stats
6248 Members
58 Forums
16552 Topics
285656 Posts

Max Online: 294 @ 12/06/17 12:57 AM
Google Adsense
Page 5 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#311589 - 03/15/19 06:21 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16723
LOL - that's what happens when I start a post before bed, and post it in the morning. Greger made my point for me. My reaction is strong because these were my studies in college - history and political science/economics. That was at the time the war over the words was strong.

Top
#311590 - 03/15/19 07:00 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14809
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I dunno Gregor. I find it difficult to follow Mudge's historical context.

This quote from the interviewer seemed to capture neoliberalism in a nutshell...
Quote:
Since the late 1970s political parties all over the world have embraced a politics of free markets, privatization, and financialization. While promising freedom, this political project — typically referred to as neoliberalism — has brought record levels of economic inequality and significant democratic retrenchment, particularly in the advanced capitalist world.


I didn't mean to bring more confusion to the topic, I'm just trying to get clear on who you are talking about when you address neoconservatism.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#311594 - 03/15/19 10:49 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16723
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
I dunno Gregor. I find it difficult to follow Mudge's historical context.

This quote from the interviewer seemed to capture neoliberalism in a nutshell...
Quote:
Since the late 1970s political parties all over the world have embraced a politics of free markets, privatization, and financialization. While promising freedom, this political project — typically referred to as neoliberalism — has brought record levels of economic inequality and significant democratic retrenchment, particularly in the advanced capitalist world.


I didn't mean to bring more confusion to the topic, I'm just trying to get clear on who you are talking about when you address neoconservatism.
(I think I've brought enough confusion to the topic... and I started it! LOL)

It is precisely because " a politics of free markets, privatization, and financialization" is contrary to the concept of neoliberal and because it is "typically referred to as neoliberalism" that I get my undies in a bundle. It's defamation in the guise of a label.

Top
#311605 - 03/17/19 03:38 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1403
I'm not sure what the debate is about here with the term 'Neoliberalism'. It's generally referred to today as a a deference to market forces over public space and goods.
In a way, NWP, your argument reminds me of a time when the Xerox corporation was waging a campaign to stop people from using the term 'Xerox', as in 'go xerox this page for me'. They were trying to protect a brand identity and differentiate that consumer might mistake the minolta, ricoh or cannon copiers for being a xerox machine.
Everybody knew what it meant and could care less about the proper use of the word Xerox with the exception of some mid-level marketing managers working at Xerox.

Yeah, sure, this form of political ideology begat that and that ideology begat this school of political philosophy. All seem to have been formed at one time or another since the ideas and practice of capitalism were introduced to societies as a force for change and challenge to the old feudal order. It was generally though that capitalism was a force for change and progress by elevating the concept of liberation of the individual over strict feudal social convention thru capitalism. Some Scotsman wrote a book about the goodness of everyone pursuing their own individual interest being a great way forward and would allow for society to improve mankind, etc. Correct?

So how's that working out? What does the empirical evidence say to any and all of this conceptual argument? This drive toward a market oriented society and politics?

Inequality, as Piketty has pointed out, is higher now than at any time in human history.
That means that wealth and political power are now more concentrated.

But I am specifically arguing about the forces of capital that give lavishly to a certain democrat politician that, suprise, suprise, happens to be in broad alignment with the interest of those contributors. By implication, that may mean we are less of a democracy now than at any time in U.S. history? Sure, go vote but who you get to vote for is decided on by capital.

So, yeah, I'm talking about the neoliberal democrats as critics have called them and the turn of the democratic party, towards capitol forces since the 70's, as has been documented and described by scholars such as Chomsky, Harvey, Frank, etc.
Would it help to call them Ordoliberals? Would that end the confusion?


Edited by chunkstyle (03/17/19 04:45 PM)

Top
#311611 - 03/17/19 07:11 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14809
Loc: Florida
And suddenly NWPs panties are in a twist again...

Quote:
I'm talking about the neoliberal democrats as critics have called them and the turn of the democratic party, towards capitol forces since the 70's, as has been documented and described by scholars such as Chomsky, Harvey, Frank, etc.

Cause he seems to be saying there is a different and opposite form of Neo Liberalism which may or may not have been documented sooner? And holds the titular rights to the definition of the word but I'm not sure he's given us the definition exactly.

Quote:
But I am specifically arguing about the forces of capital that give lavishly to a certain democrat politician that, suprise, suprise, happens to be in broad alignment with the interest of those contributors. By implication, that may mean we are less of a democracy now than at any time in U.S. history?


Beto? Sure. Capital owns the media. I'm almost certain the media is going to give Beto special treatment and bourgeois gold will be flowing into his coffers. That's why I'm pegging him to win.

Less of a democracy now? I dunno, politics has always been crooked. But that inequality thing is getting to be a frightful problem.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

Top
#311616 - 03/17/19 09:21 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13679
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

It was in the 1980s that the confusion came into the equation, when Friedman and other members coopted the name to describe their drastic use of tools such as austerity, balanced budgets and deregulation, all of which are inimical to the goals of neoliberalism. They are, essentially, libertarians.


That wouldn't be the least bit surprising, seeing as how fascists AND other totalitarians all OVER the spectrum have been fond of usurping and capturing the word "socialism" for what seems like forever, and when that won't do, they just coopt "democratic" instead.

If it weren't for patent and trademark infringement law, I'm sure every brown soft drink on the planet would try to call themselves "Coke", even if didn't taste anything like "The Real Thing".

_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

Top
#311624 - 03/18/19 09:32 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16723
Here's a truth about me: I have a fetish about the proper use of words. I HATE the misuse of words. I get grumpy about misusing than, then; your you're; I can go on and on, iteratively. wink I get particularly grumpy when words are used for deception, something conservatives do constantly, from the naming of think tanks and lobbying groups to defaming opponents and disguising blatant racism with euphemisms and code words.

This falls in the last category. "Neoliberal" was a perfectly good, descriptive and accurate term for a school of economic thought. Then the conservatives went to work coopting, distorting and misusing it for their own nefarious purposes. Most infuriating of all, it worked!. Yes, I can't let it go, because it is so wrong. I've never let slavery, the holocaust, fascism or communism go go, either. What is wrong is wrong, and I can't accept it.

Now you all understand. smile

Top
#311625 - 03/18/19 10:00 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1403
I'm not sure what your one sentence definition of Neoliberalism is NWP, but I'm going to stick with 'it's a professional swindle' for now.

Top
#311626 - 03/18/19 10:33 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16723
"a socioeconomic model combining a free market capitalist economic system alongside social policies that establish both fair competition within the market and a welfare state."

Top
#311627 - 03/18/19 11:42 PM Re: What is Neoliberalism? [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9009
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
"Neoliberal" was a perfectly good, descriptive and accurate term for a school of economic thought. Then the conservatives went to work coopting, distorting and misusing it for their own nefarious purposes. Most infuriating of all, it worked!. Yes, I can't let it go, because it is so wrong. I've never let slavery, the holocaust, fascism or communism go go, either. What is wrong is wrong, and I can't accept it.

That's why I think we should define a proper system of economics and governance and label it "Americanism". It would be hard to corrupt it without being... well, unAmerican.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

Top
Page 5 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >

Who's Online
0 registered (), 17 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TrentonP, Nosf50, erumonej, Jensen Breck, Albertapkr
6248 Registered Users
A2