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#312160 - 05/07/19 06:53 PM end is nigh
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2522
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
My wife and I were talking the other day and bemoaning the climate change thing. Then we moved on to the general state of our ecology. After a bit we agreed that, within 50 years, there is going to be terrible problems.

Take immigration, for instance. If you think that we have a problem now, just wait. There is some evidence that much of what we are seeing, right now, is due to an ongoing drought in Latin America. This is happening in the very countries said to be contributing to the current southern border countries. Within the next 50 years what we see now will be considered the proverbial drop in the bucket. Between Climate change and ecological failure, across the board, masses of people are going to be searching for survival worldwide. Its probable that there are not going to be all that many places to actually survive in and, given how we are, right now, killing off most of the insect population whilst poisoning our food supply sources, its unlikely that the United States is going to be one of those survival places. I am suggesting that Americans will be trying to move to countries that were not quite so cavalier with resources. Oh, we are also being told that animals living in oceans are all also now at risk of extinction. I are also being told that humanity, right now, is dumping something like 500 tons of bad into our oceans every freaking day! Yep, in about 50 years its gonna be 'interesting'.

I was thinking about curses and what would happen if they worked. I do know, that in about 50 years, the current generation will be cursed by just about everybody as well. What amazes me is that nobody seems to really give a damn (I know, them crazy environmentalists are talking about it but they are being drowned out by them that don't give a damn). Once it really starts up, we are told, there will be nothing that can stop it.

On the bright side human population is halving itself approximately every 50 years due to fertility loss so there aren't gonna be all that many humans left. (world growth rate has been in minus column since the 1960's) Throw in our obvious dedication to war, and destroying each other, one can only assume that too will reduce humanity on earth.

I just thought I would bring a little entertainment to your world.............

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#312167 - 05/08/19 06:48 AM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13766
Loc: Whittier, California
We just hit eight billion souls, so how are we halving our growth?
World growth rate in the minus column? I'm searching but not seeing any minuses.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#312170 - 05/08/19 05:36 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2522
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
World population growth rate and birth rates are steadily decreasing. That doesn't mean things are not increasing but that the increase is beginning to go down. The United States birth rate, right now, is barely up to replacing and, without immigrants we would be in trouble. As 3rd world gets better their birth rates too tend to get less. I have been told that happens when folks no longer need as many children as possible to care for them when they get old (may or may not be true) You can google all this stuff. Here is an example:

https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth

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#312177 - 05/09/19 03:17 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14965
Loc: Florida
Maybe birth rates go down when more women's rights are recognized?

Maybe birth rates should have started tumbling a century ago...
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312179 - 05/09/19 03:34 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6726
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Maybe space aliens have contaminated drinking water globally with saltpeter?
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#312180 - 05/09/19 05:01 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2522
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Maybe raising children has become more of a burden than a joy. I know several women who absolutely are not interested in ever becoming pregnant. There is, I suspect, a genuine shift in how this stuff is being dealt with. The poor, for instance, have a higher birth rate than those who are not. Kinda like marriage. Marriage, it seems, is no longer even considered by many. Folks just live together until they don't anymore. How does it it go? Something like; "things are a chang'in"?

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#312183 - 05/09/19 05:28 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13766
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Maybe birth rates go down when more women's rights are recognized?

Maybe birth rates should have started tumbling a century ago...



Nope, history shows that the sex is better in matriarchal societies, societies where some form of equality is acknowledged.
The downward trend in sex is directly due to the despair quotient.
Stressed out depressed people don't want to get frisky.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#312188 - 05/10/19 05:20 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14965
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The downward trend in sex is directly due to the despair quotient.


Explain to me why birth rates are so high in extremely poor, third world nations where despair and starvation are a way of life? I submit that, without rights, women are chattel and used for sex without regard for pregnancy. Because men are assh*les.

You, on the other hand submit that the United States and other wealthy nations have declining birthrates because people are so miserable they don't have sex? Wealth really sucks, eh?

Once you give women control over their bodies and their pregnancies(and their lives) you immediately see declines in birth rates...
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312189 - 05/10/19 05:29 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14965
Loc: Florida
What "matriarchal" societies....?

Perhaps the mythical isle of Lesbos?

There are no matriarchal societies and never have been. Perhaps a few tribes and villages here and there but, beyond that, men have never allowed women to dominate.(except in our wildest fantasies.......)
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312190 - 05/10/19 05:46 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14965
Loc: Florida
The "end" probably is nigh though. Billions are going to die soon as sea levels rise and the climate gets warmer. Crops will fail worldwide. Global shipping will cease as we know it as port cities are inundated. Worldwide food supplies depend on weather and rapid shipping. The United States can't even get it together to help Puerto Rico recover from a storm....we're doomed.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312191 - 05/12/19 07:10 AM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8548
Loc: North San Diego County
Sea level rise does not happen overnight: It probably happens over a few hundred years, at the quickest. Plenty of time to modify ports and build new ones. Everybody could walk North out of Florida and beat sea level rise. Water moves North, but the corn belt also moves North, as does the wheat belt. Parts of Canada, Scandinavia, Siberia, Argentina, and Chile can grow wheat where it is too cold now.

At the same time, some equatorial deserts get bigger. Some equatorial jungles become uninhabitable because of tsetse flies and heat. Some lakes dry up, some form or get bigger. In general, there is more water in the atmosphere, not less.

Some countries get richer, some get poorer as weather patterns change. Some are totally underwater, but not that many.

The Earth goes on just fine, but it may be very difficult for us. Probably no new megafauna evolve, because this would be too fast for evolution.

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#312196 - 05/13/19 06:53 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: pondering_it_all]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2522
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I think you are saying that climate change can be dealt with. That may actually be true. However, its not gonna happen. The first problem is politics and the second are national boundaries, worldwide. Between the two what we are going to get are floods of refugees (already started on our southern border), and entire nations getting desertified whilst actually invading neighbors. There are records of ice age changes and its gonna happen again.

There are, we are told, actually solutions to mitigate. That too isn't going to help. Eventually the more adventurous are going to try and fix it by 'helping' the atmosphere with chemicals, etc. One mistake and EVERYBODY dies!

Sorry - not a big believer in humanity's ability to actually act in its own best interest.

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#312199 - 05/14/19 01:35 AM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8548
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
climate change can be dealt with


Implying that humans do somethings to make the climate like it was in 1900: No, probably not. The Earth goes on, but maybe without us. I think the things that can wipe out humanity are all man made. Climate change may precipitate one or the other, but we don't actually die from climate change.

One of the most likely is a synthetic virus that kills every body who is Black, or Yellow, or White. Some people seem to think everything would be peachy if we could just kill xxxx*. Of course, once you have an xxxx specific virus it's just a small tweak to make it kill other races.

* Where xxxx represents the race of your choice.

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#312200 - 05/14/19 03:58 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14965
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Sea level rise does not happen overnight: It probably happens over a few hundred years, at the quickest. Plenty of time to modify ports and build new ones. Everybody could walk North out of Florida and beat sea level rise. Water moves North...


Uh...water is gonna move north south east and west. It's not just coming across the southern border. Walls won't stop it.

Plenty of time? And plenty of available land to the north just sitting there waiting to be farmed? We can get all the food we need from Canada?

Your science fiction addiction is once again affecting your judgement about what science can accomplish. We can't even afford to build new roads and bridges yet you've got us mining asteroids and growing wheat in space to feed a starving planet.

I hear there's flooding in the corn belt right now. Trump's trade wars are pushing farmers into bankruptcy. Bees and other pollinators are dying. Rain patterns that crops depend on are changing. There's a lot more involved than just moving crops a little north. Too much rain, too little rain, rain at the wrong time...crops fail, people starve.
What you get is famines, wars, pestilence and wholesale death. Those four horsemen we've been told about.

We can't even manage to rebuild Puerto Rico after a single storm. And a new hurricane and wildfire season are upon us once again...after a devastating winter that has already disrupted farming across the great plains with massive flooding...science better get its ass in gear if it's going to save us.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312203 - 05/14/19 06:32 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9038
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Greger
...science better get its ass in gear if it's going to save us.
Science, engineering, and blind arrogance are what got us into all this. A major paradigm shift is what will get us out, dead or alive.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#312205 - 05/14/19 09:37 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8548
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
growing wheat in space to feed a starving planet

Ridiculous: I never said that. It would be possible to grow enough on the moon to support a colony there, but importing food to Earth is crazy expensive.

Quote:
mining asteroids
Some people with a lot of money are actually spending some of that money on this.
BBC link

And you know we could rebuild Puerto Rico perfectly well, if they didn't all speak Spanish. It just takes money and maybe the Army Corps of Engineers for a while, but they don't get to vote so Trump would rather spend the money in Florida.

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#312206 - 05/14/19 09:50 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14965
Loc: Florida
Quote:
It would be possible to grow enough on the moon to support a colony there, but importing food to Earth is crazy expensive.


yeah, everything about space is crazy expensive. Hard to do when wildfires, floods, and hurricanes are slamming you every few months.

When the crop failures get serious and the famines begin there will be even less money for going to space. Wars will eat up most of it.
When you wonder about the future, just look at the past and our record of solving problems with anything besides more war. Leaving the planet and going of into space is not and will never be an option. Never.

Rebuilding every major coastal city in the world and all the harbours and access to them isn't liable to happen either. We're too busy filling the oceans with plastic and burning noxious chemicals so that the rich may never want for anything.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312207 - 05/15/19 03:11 AM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8548
Loc: North San Diego County
But building a new port facility is just another way those rich people can get richer. Things change, but the rich are still rich and the poor are still poor. They tried having the state own everything in communist USSR and China, and that didn't work so well. Insurance companies will continue forever: The risks change and the rates reflect those risks. We can easily build fire-proof houses and people are starting to do it in California. That removes a lot of the risk from wildfires.

Likewise, people living in 500 year flood planes (now apparently 5 year flood planes) need to build on stilts or concrete blocks that make the downstairs all garage. On the other hand, I would not bother making your house hurricane-proof, if it's going to end up under water.

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#312209 - 05/15/19 12:52 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1506
Most climate modeling has been found to be on the conservative side in regards to the speed and acceleration rate of global warming.
I'm generally hoping that it catches the most infantilized generation in history as they seem to be the most irresponsible and largest contributors of carbon emissions.
There seems to be something in the human species that makes the future unimportant to the present. Except when it comes to capitalism and investment there seems to be no capacity for regard of the future. Spurning social conscienceness and class struggle has only helped accelerate the problem.
Money is starting to sit up...

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#312210 - 05/15/19 01:05 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1506
The left has been all over this history eclipsing horror but as we know, the two american political parties have no capacity to turn left.

The concept of social goods and services is abhorrent to the boards of directors of these two corporate parties, preferring consumerism and faux meritocracy instead.

Like the Roman elites, today's can't build their doomsday villas fast enough while the rest of us suckers hold mock arguments about inherent rights.

Ho ho, too sad and ironic at the same time..


Edited by chunkstyle (05/15/19 01:07 PM)

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#312212 - 05/15/19 03:49 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14965
Loc: Florida
Quote:
We can easily build fire-proof houses and people are starting to do it in California. That removes a lot of the risk from wildfires.


Easily? Housing prices soared here when codes changed to build windproof houses....Wasn't much help when a cat 5 hurricane slammed into the panhandle.
Housing prices are already through the roof in California. I hear tales of folks without homes as insurance proved insufficient. If your house and land burned to the ground tomorrow could you "easily" rebuild?

Easy is a great word when you don't have to actually do it yourself.

You and science probably have easy answers for the next drought too...? The next earthquake? The next flood?
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312216 - 05/15/19 05:50 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2522
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Does anybody remember the concrete flyash sprayon houses? It was developed by somebody in gov who figured it would be a good way to build houses quickly and cheaply. Often what happened to that one. Anyway, houses made of that material would be fireproof and windproof. There used to be builders who were using it. Wonder what happened....

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/fly-ash-applications-844761

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#312222 - 05/16/19 01:42 AM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8548
Loc: North San Diego County
That's what stucco is: Cheaper than wood siding and completely fire-proof. People just build with flammable stuff because it looks nicer. Stucco is cheap. Fire shutters are cheap. Composition singles are cheaper than wood shakes. Fine metal screens on all your vents costs next to nothing.

The ONLY reason the Camp fire burned the whole town of Paradise is they built with wood, they built too close together, and they had flammable vegetation too close to their houses. Lots of trees were left unburned, but embers from structures ignited shake roofs downwind. The medical staff and patients actually survived by moving into a fire-proof house!

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#312223 - 05/16/19 02:42 AM Re: end is nigh [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14965
Loc: Florida
Stucco on a stick frame house is nothing like fireproof. Steel framing is standard for businesses here but homes are still sticks and mud.

Hardy Plank concrete siding replaced wood around here decades ago.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312224 - 05/16/19 02:56 AM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8548
Loc: North San Diego County
It is ember-proof. It is fire-proof if there is nothing hot enough to ignite the wood within 100 feet. It burns if you plant flammable shrubs right next to the house, or have a redwood deck that embers ignite. We have a fixation on defensible space here in California. If your house is not defensible, the firemen will just move on to the next house that is. They won't even try to save it because there talents are more useful at houses they can save.

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#312230 - 05/16/19 12:21 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16741
Thanks, guys. I'm awake before 5 a.m., reading a little and catching up, trying to get sleepy again, and now I'm depressed and scared. I've been busy avoiding reality and here you bring it to me. Sheesh!

I've been railing about our collective irresponsibility for some time. The worst effects won't affect me, but my children, well, they're f*ed. I spent some time (too much) trying to convince some climate deniers that we're already witnessing the effects of global climate change in hurricanes and fire seasons, with graphs, charts and, you know, science. What I learned is, their capacity for denial is inexhaustible. Evidence they don't like is "dismissed", and any scintilla of a hint of anything contrary ("it's snowing outside") is flogged to death as refutation of climate change. There are too many of "them", and the worse it gets, the more of them there will be. Humans hate to admit fault.

The truth is, we're probably already too late. I live on a hill (unfortunately in a forest), so I'll be above the tsunami line, even after the sea rise, but the neighborhood will probably go up in flames during the coming droughts. Already summers here are routinely smoky. We go to the coast when it gets bad (my wife has breathing issues), and we have a well-stocked bugout vehicle for the coming disasters (assuming we can get fuel within 300 miles or so). I'll probably need a long gun for survival, but a neighbor has an arsenal...

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#312233 - 05/16/19 01:15 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9038
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
An alternative to bugging out (assuming there is any place to bug out to) is to attempt to create resilient communities where we are. If everybody did that, we might have a chance to correct our course.

At the least, it would be a more pleasant way to spend our last days... instead of in worrying and fear.

ThumbsUp
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#312234 - 05/16/19 01:39 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9038
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#312237 - 05/16/19 03:21 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16741
Originally Posted By: logtroll
An alternative to bugging out (assuming there is any place to bug out to) is to attempt to create resilient communities where we are. If everybody did that, we might have a chance to correct our course.

At the least, it would be a more pleasant way to spend our last days... instead of in worrying and fear.

ThumbsUp
Truly, I agree. Resilient communities spread.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#312241 - 05/16/19 03:43 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14965
Loc: Florida
Resilient communities...

Small groups of heavily armed rednecks with farming and hunting experience living in remote farmable, huntable, fishable rural areas.

I live in one of these communities. We even have a couple helicopters.

Republicans are ready! Democrats not so much. Cities are going to be a nightmare.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312243 - 05/16/19 06:40 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9038
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Greger
Small groups of heavily armed rednecks with farming and hunting experience living in remote farmable, huntable, fishable rural areas.

Yes, I see you are being the Realist again... Cormac McCarthyism.

While it's far less likely, I still have the fantasy that some people will one day learn to live a bit more harmoniously. Though I can't really think of any evidence that it has ever happened... rolleyes
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#312244 - 05/16/19 08:09 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2522
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
There is a place called Neah Bay in about the most northwestern place you can get in the continental United States. Its also on an Indian reservation. They used to have an airforce base. That base was built to support a hollowed out mountain where they could actually launch jet airplanes. Its really quite scenic and faces the Pacific Ocean (but high up), and its BIG. I suspect that this installation is still there (probably with big steel doors, etc to keep it safe for eternity). So, If you really want to hide out I suspect this would be the place to go. I don't think the Indians are doing anything with it and would probably be willing to give somebody the chance to either buy, or lease, the facility. You could probably stick over 100 people in this one.

There is another installation in a place called Salt Creek. Its currently a county park. It used to have a base, called Camp Hayden, to support it. This one has a number of hollowed out places that were built in WWII to guard the entrance to Puget sound (amongst other things they had 6/8 inch guns installed (now all scrapped out). The hollow places, however, are still there and you can actually drive through a couple of them. The state has also taken over parts of it as, at one time, they thought this would be a good safe place to hideout if war comes and they keep their big steel doors pretty well locked up. I have been told that they have also stored literally tons of paperwork, etc. in there. Still, if you have the bucks I suspect you could work something out.

There are any number of these places still existing. The Oregon coast also has a bunch of them as does puget sound. Port Townsend
has several such places too. Thought I would just make a couple of suggestions if you want to hide out.

Just a thought.............

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#312252 - 05/17/19 01:43 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1506
History has proven that Doomsday villas don't work, JGW.
Cooperate or die.
Socialism puts a premium on cooperation while fascism is about hierarchy.

Not only will there be issues of common defense and procurement of goods but a host of contagions and infections should also appear as sanitation and hygiene are reduced.

It doesn't take a genius to see that already underway. Diseases are on the rise and we are woefully unprepared to deal with them. Preferring capitalism to socialism in our health care doesn't mean a thing to microbiology.

My area of the county is infested with the rural plague, Lyme disease. The Doctors are told not to address it. It goes mostly misdiagnosed and is not a disease for the poor to get better from. They get opium pain killers for the symptoms instead of getting cured and the health industry is happy.

I expect even more similar scenarios to play out in the years ahead as microbes have less choices for hosts to infect they will invariably jump to whats remaining- humans. I believe that's a well understood evolutionary adaption in microbiology.

Good look with that in the absence of public healthcare and a commodification of illness to maximize profit of diseases.

For better or worse, The leader of the center right party said it best: 'were all capitalists now'.



Edited by chunkstyle (05/17/19 02:00 PM)

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#312255 - 05/17/19 02:59 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: logtroll]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14965
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Greger
Small groups of heavily armed rednecks with farming and hunting experience living in remote farmable, huntable, fishable rural areas.

Yes, I see you are being the Realist again... Cormac McCarthyism.

While it's far less likely, I still have the fantasy that some people will one day learn to live a bit more harmoniously. Though I can't really think of any evidence that it has ever happened... rolleyes


Small groups of heavily armed rednecks with hunting and farming experience can live very harmoniously.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312258 - 05/17/19 06:06 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2522
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I think you may be confusing plain old healthcare with the American Modern For Profit Healthcare. This is the modern way! Anything else is, obviously, Un-American!

What I really don't understand, however, is that the "For Profit" part is rarely, if ever spoken, by either side. I guess its just a given.


Edited by jgw (05/18/19 05:39 PM)

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#312261 - 05/17/19 06:26 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1506
I'm not sure what your referring to when you say "plain old healthcare" JGW.

Whats that?

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#312263 - 05/17/19 09:21 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9038
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Greger
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Greger
Small groups of heavily armed rednecks with farming and hunting experience living in remote farmable, huntable, fishable rural areas.

Yes, I see you are being the Realist again... Cormac McCarthyism.

While it's far less likely, I still have the fantasy that some people will one day learn to live a bit more harmoniously. Though I can't really think of any evidence that it has ever happened... rolleyes


Small groups of heavily armed rednecks with hunting and farming experience can live very harmoniously.

Hillbilly Harmony
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#312269 - 05/18/19 05:47 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2522
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I remember a time when you just went to a doctor, or a hospital, they took care of you and then asked about insurance and payments. Now you goto a hospital, for instance, and the first thing is asked is how they are going to get paid. That is the first question out of their mouths.

Healthcare used to have the health of the patient utmost - now its all about the bucks. Well, I am old, so my memory may be defective. In any case it would certainly be nice if the health of the patient was put first. That is certainly not the current situation.

Its interesting. Socially provided healthcare means that if you got a problem you goto the doctor and you get taken care of. Don't matter what the problem is, how much money you got, etc. Its even a little worse than that. Congress, for instance, actually passed a law to make it illegal to goto Canada and get drugs a LOT cheaper than here. The Republicans are against socially provided healthcare because there are no options for coverage (really!) socially provided healthcare has no options because EVERYTHING is covered!

Probably wrong about that too?

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#312288 - 05/20/19 04:28 AM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8548
Loc: North San Diego County
Well, not quite everything. My employer's insurance would pay for 6 boner pills per month. Medicare Plan D (and every other Medicare Advantage plan that mimics Plan D) don't pay for any. I guess when you turn 65 they figure you are done with sex.

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#312298 - 05/21/19 09:31 AM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1506
I do not know of that time of which you speak JGW. One of the earliest recollections I have was a broken collar bone in the mid 70's, I remember my parents filling out the paper work while we waited in the emergency room.
The only times that I ever got to see a doctor without being asked 'who's gunna pay for this?' was when I was working abroad in Europe or Canada.
It must have been a nice time when it was the same in the states.
But hey, were all capitalists so buck up pal!


Edited by chunkstyle (05/21/19 09:32 AM)

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#312301 - 05/21/19 06:19 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14965
Loc: Florida
Medical care used to be a lot cheaper but "doctor bills" still had to be paid.
Back in the 50's Doctors drove Cadillacs and Lincolns, they lived in nicer houses than the rest of us and their kids had better toys.

We have suffered a quiet inflation, fueled mostly by technology, where everything costs many times what it used to. The only thing that hasn't gone up is wages.

Didn't they used to call that stagflation?

I call it end stage capitalism.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312304 - 05/21/19 09:19 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: Greger]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2522
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
In addition we now have, apparently, a HUGE amount of paperwork to deal with too. It was my belief that Obamacare was working on that as well as standardizing all the software. That, again apparently, has been stopped along with the data that would have, over time, been able to be studied so that better outcomes could be predicted, unnecessary done away with, etc.

Apparently Obamacare was also moving the healthcare expense curve as well. That's now been fixed as well.

All that kind of stuff would have cut into the profit part of the for profit healthcare we have so it makes sense to put an end to that kind of nonsense.......... Basically, them clever Republicans flat out understand the "for profit" part and work very hard at 'helping'.


Edited by jgw (05/21/19 09:20 PM)

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#312306 - 05/22/19 02:35 AM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14965
Loc: Florida

Everything useful the government used to do has pretty much been shut down.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312308 - 05/22/19 07:18 AM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8548
Loc: North San Diego County
Some folks claim the economy is doing well, but that "wellness" only accrues to people who own stock or rental property. Some huge percentage of middle class families don't have the cash reserves to pay for a $400 emergency, without selling something. One unexpected event and they could be homeless or bankrupt. One missing paycheck and they are screwed. Rentiers are doing great, renters, not so much.

In particular, Trump voters are probably suffering the most. Lost manufacturing jobs, tariffs on steel and aluminum, and now agricultural products. You know who is probably doing okay? Any of those coal miners Hillary told to get retrained for something else, who actually followed her advice.

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#312315 - 05/22/19 04:33 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2522
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Here is an interesting link on the retirement thing:
https://www.thestreet.com/retirement/average-retirement-savings-14881067

Can't resist. "The Homeless" is a lousy description of the problem. Last figure I heard was that 47% of the 'homeless' have mental problems. This country has been relying on our system of prisons to take care of the most extreme cases as most real facilities have either been shut down or are failing. Then there are the plain flat out bums who prey on the rest of the homeless. There are also the elderly married who lived on both their social security checks then one dies, they own nothing, and the single social security checks won't pay the rent. Our local high school is also full of homeless kids who have parents who are over 50 and cannot find jobs. As far as I can tell cities are having a serious problem dealing with folks living out of their cars, motor homes, trailers, etc. too. Its a serious problem that needs fixing and there is no way to do that in one fell swoop. I could go on and on about this one but, I suspect, everybody knows about this one. I do know that where I live we have a really serious problems and our city council has decided not to recognize it at all. I know a friend who went to a meeting to ask about it and, before he could as the question, was told that the council has "bigger fish to fry" and just shut him down.

Interesting times.............

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#312325 - 05/23/19 07:12 AM Re: end is nigh [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8548
Loc: North San Diego County
Come on man! The economy is booming. Our Savior Trump told us so.

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#312332 - 05/23/19 05:46 PM Re: end is nigh [Re: pondering_it_all]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2522
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Well, there is that!

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