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#312362 - 05/26/19 06:11 PM Democratic Socialism
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2618
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Several months ago we had a kindofa thing over the word "socialism" and the Democratic party. I was on the side that said that using the word 'socialism' in reference to the Democratic party was flat out stupid. The other side tended to like the term in reference to the Democratic party. The Republicans have made 'socialist" a major part of their quest for victory.

Now its time to pay the piper. The Dems stuck to their guns and the word 'socialism' as part of their description. They are paying the price. I just saw a report on a poll where the question was asked "would you vote for a socialist" - seems that only 40% of the electorate would even vaguely vote for such.

The Republicans are VERY good at picking phrases and words. The Democrats are, obviously, completely blind to the same thing. If they are actually going to win they had better start paying attention because WORDS MATTER! This is a known thing! Still, the Dems don't seem to have a clue. On political betting sites (predictit in this case), generally thought to be better at political speculation than so called experts, 2020 is seen, right now, as a tossup. A tossup!

I know, I pick on the Dems. I do it in the hope that they brighten up, come out of their shell, and join up with the WHOLE electorate. Elizabeth Warren, for instance, refused to go onto Fox news. She gave her reasons but refused. What she accomplished was to tell everybody that she was willing to speak to the Choir ONLY! Somebody like that cannot win against Trump - pure and simple.

I have no idea who is really running the Dems but, as far as I can tell, they seem basically determined to lose the election in 2020. The front runner is Joe Biden. Less than 50% of the electorate will vote for candidates over 70 years old. I like Joe but............

On the plus side I am more often wrong than right, in my speculations, and will have, absolutely no problem being wrong on this one.


Edited by jgw (05/26/19 06:12 PM)

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#312363 - 05/26/19 11:08 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8886
Loc: North San Diego County
I'm a mainstream Democrat and I've been saying for a very long time that calling yourself a socialist gets rid of a very large percentage of Democratic voters over 40. Of course, anybody who supports things like interstate highways and Medicare IS somewhat socialist. But for god's sake don't CALL yourself a socialist! That's like saying you are a child molester for some people.

The vast majority of Americans actually do support socialist programs when you ask them about the specific programs. I think that's the key to winning as a Democrat. Say your opponent is insane and wants to get rid of Medicare, Social Security, and so forth.

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#312364 - 05/27/19 01:50 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   happy

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14458
Loc: Whittier, California
Insistence on using a badly maligned label is pure stupidity if you're in the business of selling. And make no mistake, candidacy for elected office, particularly POTUS, is both a job interview and a sales pitch.
The European fascists understood that the term "socialist" was a good thing at the time in the 1930's.

This is not the 1930's and we're not in Europe.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#312366 - 05/27/19 02:07 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15667
Loc: Florida
Early on it appeared the excitement was on the left. It faded though. Once again Conservatives tell Democrats what words they can and can not use.

And once again we bow down and play by their rules.

They can be nazis, racists, nationalists, white supremicists, adulterers, rapists, and child molesters and it's all good.

But oh good gracious don't ever use that s word....
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#312367 - 05/27/19 02:39 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8886
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
don't ever use that s word

Not if you want to win the election. It sucks, but it's a fact of life.

Socialist ideas and programs are fine, as long as the majority of voters like them. In particular, I think Democrats can make a great case for single-payer just in terms of job mobility and being competitive with all the other countries that have that. No need to bring up the fact that it is the right thing to do. Just show how it saves a lot of money in the big picture. Most successful socialist programs we have actually make a lot of sense economically. Libertarian ideas like toll roads everywhere would cost a lot more than having the government do it.

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#312368 - 05/27/19 04:24 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   happy

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14458
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Early on it appeared the excitement was on the left. It faded though. Once again Conservatives tell Democrats what words they can and can not use.

And once again we bow down and play by their rules.

They can be nazis, racists, nationalists, white supremicists, adulterers, rapists, and child molesters and it's all good.

But oh good gracious don't ever use that s word....



Hey, Chesney Communications, a studio in Orange County that gave me my very first on air TV job in 1982, did the VERY FIRST ever TV show about the MRI machine, but back then the medical industry was calling it "NMR" for "Nuclear Magnetic Resonance".

Okay? Nuclear did not mean "nuclear power", it meant that the magnetism caused the nuclei of human cells to RESONATE, thus "nuclear" magnetic resonance imaging, or NMR or NMRI.
The world's first NMR was installed at the AMC Cancer Center in Denver CO.

Within a MONTH the industry changed the name to Magnetic Resonance Imaging, or MRI, because patients WOULD NOT CLIMB INTO a machine that they THOUGHT was "nuclear".

I hope that you understand the analogy I am making here.
I know that we had to reshoot the entire program, with Bob Chesney snorting and fuming the entire time when he wasn't on camera.

His gut told him the whole time that the original name was a sure loser with the public, and he charged AMC double for the reshoot because they insisted on sticking WITH NMR until they experienced a disastrous PR debacle and had to deal with furious no-nukers who were convinced that the cancer hospital was bombarding people with nuclear radiation.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#312369 - 05/27/19 04:29 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15667
Loc: Florida
Democrats are certainly a nutless bunch. I thought they'd go for a fresh faced guy like Beto but they want the blandest of the milquetoast bland and are jumping on a chance to run yet another out of touch old white guy.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#312370 - 05/27/19 09:33 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
Someone reads a poll somewhere and everyone starts reflexively cringing like it's 1955.

Just a reality check.

A self declared socialist septuagenarian with little money and no friends among the corporate media went on to nearly unseat the most well heeled and press pre-selected candidate in 2016.
He's also the front runner in the 2018 primary with more small dollar donations and, yep, some polling among the democratic candidates.

Jeremy Corbin won a stunning victory for labor during Theresa May's snap election in the U.K. after the opposition leaked the 'Labor Manifesto' to the public thru their conservative broadsheets. A very big miscalculation as it allowed people to read the contents of the manifesto with it's socialist proposals and helped the Labor party have the largest pick up of house seats since WW2. The polls and pundits were calling it for conservatives as the manifesto was being published in the run up to elections.

As I see it, it's the libs and neolibs have been primarily responsible for killing any progressive democratic movement in this country since Reagan. More than the far right, it's been these party bosses that routinely killed progressive proposals in the cradle thru the primary system. As they continue to do in this election.

Fun Fact. the ideas being promoted by DSA are very popular with voters. So why aren't they allowed to run in the primaries against an incumbent democrat?

Nawwww.... must be the negative brand recognition of those 40 and up...

Libs and neolibs. Punching left while moving right since 1972.






Edited by chunkstyle (05/27/19 09:48 AM)

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#312372 - 05/27/19 02:41 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15667
Loc: Florida
Quote:
patients WOULD NOT CLIMB INTO a machine that they THOUGHT was "nuclear".


But they let you shoot them with X-Rays all day long? Which ARE nuclear in the radioactive sense and everybody knows it....

Sorry Jeff, it's just not that great an analogy. As long as you let Republicans control the dialogue you give up more than just a word.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#312373 - 05/27/19 06:58 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2618
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Well said! Its like modular reactors (SMR's) They got rid of the 'nuclear' right off the bat. Words DO matter! Some get demonized and Republicans are REALLY expert at demonization. They worked Hillary over for over 30 years and she could never bring herself to even vaguely fight back - that cost her the election. Hopefully that won't happen with the Dems in 2020 but the Republicans have geared up 'socialist' big time.

Dems just don't seem to get it or even try to get it. This is especially true of 'pure' democrats.

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