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#312640 - 06/22/19 01:58 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17279
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Somebody needs to make it clear: Social Security IS socialist. Medicare IS socialist.


I can't seem to get that point across even here. Mixed systems work best. It's almost like racism, racially integrated societies work better than apartheid. But racists simply don't buy into that theory.

It seems to be fear and hatred of any sort of change. Even though if we don't change we are pretty much doomed. Democratic Socialism isn't even a major change.
But even a single black person in the pool just spoils it for everyone else...who is white...and racist.

Perhaps what Democratic Socialists need to do is demonize Capitalism the way Republicans have demonized Socialism.
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#312644 - 06/23/19 05:06 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10351
Loc: North San Diego County
>demonize Capitalism

No, because a pure socialist system has never resulted in anything but misery. And then revolution, either hard or soft, and a return to a mixed system. One NEEDS the other, just like business needs government to keep the market fair and orderly. I really do not want to live in a libertarian hell, or in an Orwellian totally controlled state.

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#312649 - 06/23/19 04:35 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: ]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Gregor
Quote:
Somebody needs to make it clear: Social Security IS socialist. Medicare IS socialist.


I can't seem to get that point across even here. Mixed systems work best. It's almost like racism, racially integrated societies work better than apartheid. But racists simply don't buy into that theory.





No no, you're NOT ALONE.
I've been screeching about the mutt theory in economics forever.
You're 100 percent right. Purity is poison.
It's poisonous to most things we know and love.

Genetic purity leads to profound birth defects.
In music, art, literature, even cuisine, purity leads to stagnation and genre collapse.
In religion it leads to fundamentalist extremism.
And in economics it leads to...much the same.
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#312655 - 06/24/19 01:30 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Uhhh... China?

There's not been any country that I know of that hasn't been viciously attacked by capitalist ruled states for making the grevious error of deciding to organize their government as they saw fit. Your omitting a little bit (to put it mildly) of context.

I believe the Soviets and Red China have the record on raising living standards the most in the shortest time. A feat unmatched by capitalist societies.

There are also socialists (worker run) corporations that have thrived for decades now but get very little discussion.

Take a look around here in the Untited States of Marketstan.
Wages have stalled out. Public spaces and goods have been shrunk by democrats and republicans alike. Debt levels are way up. Households now require two incomes to survive. Wealth inequality is worse than any time in our nations history. Student debt is at an all time high. I could go on but you get the point.

China got 20k miles of high speed public transport during the 2008-2010 great recession. We got Black Rock Financial Management as our newest landlord.






Edited by chunkstyle (06/24/19 01:31 PM)

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#312659 - 06/24/19 08:46 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17279
Loc: Florida
I can't look at China and see any signs of a system I'd like our government to emulate...y'know? There's an enormous amount of labor exploitation going on all over Asia.
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#312666 - 06/25/19 04:08 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10351
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Take a look around here in the Untited States of Marketstan.
Wages have stalled out. Public spaces and goods have been shrunk


The reason is simple: We have swung too far to the capitalist side and let our "General Welfare" (as per the constitution) decay relative to the wealth of the 1%. I've never believed we need more capitalism than we currently have, but we don't need or want an excessive amount of either extreme. Even Warren Buffet has made some statements about the unfairness of paying a lower tax rate than his secretary. So even some of the 1% see the system as rigged, and wished for something fairer.

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#312704 - 06/27/19 05:51 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17279
Loc: Florida
I've written several replies to this and deleted them. because on the one hand I agree with you...all we need is a few tweaks to our current system and everything will be fine....

But where's the tweaks?

I know the Republican Party is lying to and duping its voters into believing that somehow the richer rich people get the better off poor people will be.

I'm beginning to suspect the Democratic Party is doing something similar and that without some sort of major upheaval Democrats are never gonna get it and are gonna keep right on buying pigs in pokes.

I keep coming home and finding a possum in the sack....then go back and buy another...every election cycle.
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#312726 - 06/30/19 02:20 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
"I've never believed we need more capitalism than we currently have, but we don't need or want an excessive amount of either extreme. So even some of the 1% see the system as rigged, and wished for something fairer."

Some will argue what we have is currently way to much of the former and almost none of the latter. I'd have a hard time disproving that claim. Depending on your financial and material security seems to make an impact on where you fall on the scale.
I don't expect the rich to do much of anything to help with the situation any. They're the problem and not the cure.

Trump represented a departure from the status quo. Hillary was the status quo. I see no signs of that dynamic changing for the next general election as a left alternative will not be made available unless Sanders pull's off a miracle.


Edited by chunkstyle (06/30/19 02:21 PM)

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#312727 - 06/30/19 04:27 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: Greger]
Ujest Shurly Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 662
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Originally Posted By: Greger
...all we need is a few tweaks....

But where's the tweaks?


A.O.C. and the Democratic socialist Left?
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#312730 - 06/30/19 07:20 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: Ujest Shurly]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17279
Loc: Florida
AOC and the democratic socialists only make up about half a dozen votes. All they can really do is make noise and point fingers at what is most wrong with our system.

The same things that have been wrong with our system for a generation or more.

And never seem to get those tweaks...

Minimum wage is $7.25
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