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#312600 - 06/18/19 01:23 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1626
Originally Posted By: jgw
I am curious. I can't find a single truly socialist nation. If Socialism is so great why are not a bunch of countries socialist? I am talking about nations where the airlines, railroads, computer companies, etc. are all owned by the state.

Just wondering. I googled this and the only stuff I found were articles on failed Socialist states (usually starting with the Soviet Union).


China

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#312602 - 06/18/19 04:54 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8734
Loc: North San Diego County
>China

Maybe back in 1949, but the Shanghai stock exchange is the third largest stock exchange in the world.

Quote:
Deng launched several economic reforms that allowed private sectors to start and operate their own businesses once again. He also established four special economic zones along the coast of China with intentions of attracting foreign investments.


The government or the Red Army does own or hold a majority of stock in many companies, but they don't control or own everything. China is a mixed economy.

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#312604 - 06/18/19 11:41 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1626
Yeah, China ain't how she was, PIA. But neither are we for that matter. As far as I know, the Chinese government is still committed to a socialist cause.

It's how they've organized their markets that makes them different from the western capitalist economies. How their monetary system works is another. I'm not advocating here, just mentioning that there are fundamental differences in how China has organized it's economy compared to ours. One of the reasons the president and his pay day loan style banks and hedge fund trade representatives want to change that right now.

For a more nuanced look at the Chinese economy and how it has been organized, you could do worse than listen at David Harvey, a Marxist economist. It's eye opening and he has credibility of the subject since he teaches in China for a semester or two every year.

Watch video here


I can't say that China will remain committed to a socialist cause. After all, they've had decades of students sent over here to attend american business schools.

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#312605 - 06/18/19 01:39 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Gregor Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/30/16
Posts: 20
Quote:
He also established four special economic zones along the coast of China with intentions of attracting foreign investments.


Twisted together like strands of DNA.

Show me a purely capitalist country...?

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#312626 - 06/20/19 07:54 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1626
"The reason is that nominating centrist Democrats who don't speak to class issues will result in a great swathe of voters simply not voting. Conversely, right-wing candidates who speak to class issues, but who do so by harnessing a false consciousness — i.e. blaming immigrants and minorities for capitalism's ills, rather than capitalists — will win those same voters who would have voted for a more class-conscious left candidate. Piketty calls this a "bifurcated" voting situation, meaning many voters will connect either with far-right xenophobic nationalists or left-egalitarian internationalists, but perhaps nothing in-between.

Piketty's paper is an inconvenient truth for the Democratic Party. The party's leaders see themselves as the left wing of capital — supporting social policies that liberal rich people can get behind, never daring to enact economic reforms that might step on rich donors' toes. Hence, the establishment seems intent on anointing the centrist Democrats of capital, who push liberal social policies and neoliberal economic policies."




Uh oh....

PIE CHART FIGHT!!!


Edited by chunkstyle (06/20/19 07:59 PM)

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#312647 - 06/23/19 05:31 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8734
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
a great swathe of voters simply not voting

I'm not so sure about that. It's not what happened in 2018, and we elected one or two Democratic Socialists to the House with every seat in play. Democrats certainly came out to vote, and there was no big push for progressive goals.

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#312648 - 06/23/19 04:24 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15340
Loc: Florida
Voters are aware that a vote for Democrats is a vote progress. It may be an illusion, smoke and mirrors, but some small progress usually occurs under a Democratic administration.

But yeah, I think Democrats, and democrats, and some not so democratic, will be voting to oust Trump.
In large numbers.
Everywhere.

It may or may not be enough.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312653 - 06/24/19 12:33 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
Kaine Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 2166
Loc: Pennsylvania
I agree with 99% of what you say Gregor, but I have a comment on this:
Quote:
but some small progress usually occurs under a Democratic administration

I think this depends on your perspective. If you are in the 1%, these last few years have been extremely progressive. If you are just a normal citizen, not so much.

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#312654 - 06/24/19 12:58 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1626
It looks like the Democratic party is going into it's usual corporate huddle and excluding real progressives again. Hence the financial threats being made into their political policy.

Believing the same "Were not as bad as Republicans!" strategy will be enough to get a top tier time share salesman like Joe Biden elected. I'm not so sure. I'm not alone in expressing refusal to vote for that guy.

The party is pretty much a wholly owned subsidiary of the corporate party. The same party that owns the Republican party
.
I see it as a matter of what to eat at a KenTacokHut. Similar price points with slightly different ingredients owned by the same firm.

Joe Biden is just the executive model of the Boorish Trump.
At least Republican voters are getting something from their party. Democrats? Not so much...


Edited by chunkstyle (06/24/19 01:00 PM)

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#312661 - 06/24/19 09:50 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Kaine]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15340
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Kaine
I agree with 99% of what you say Gregor, but I have a comment on this:
Quote:
but some small progress usually occurs under a Democratic administration

I think this depends on your perspective. If you are in the 1%, these last few years have been extremely progressive. If you are just a normal citizen, not so much.


Oh, there's been remarkable progress for the 1%. But that happens under either party. "Some small progress" means they passed the ACA under Obama. Gay marriage became legal...small progress for the 99% but quickly snatched away when Republicans come back to power and begin funneling ALL progress back to the 1%...
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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