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#312594 - 06/17/19 08:49 PM Re: Impeach [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8549
Loc: North San Diego County

Ruling in a Big Double Jeopardy Case

The Supreme Court has upheld federal and state charges for the same criminal act. This upsets the article author, but it also blows the hell out of the argument that Trump can't be charged by the states depending on what happens at the federal level. This ruling makes it perfectly clear: Pardon, federal conviction, or not, the states can charge Trump for state crimes.

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#312608 - 06/18/19 02:11 PM Re: Impeach [Re: pondering_it_all]
Gregor Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/30/16
Posts: 20
The states could have charged him before he was elected...they didn't.
They could be investigating and charging multitudes of wealthy people who are now, and always have, skirted the law because they are wealthy and can get away with it.

They could look into the finances of any corporation and likely find chargeable offenses.

But they don't. They won't. And your fantasy of Trump in jail will go unfulfilled.

Impeachment will fail too. More likel to get him re-elected than to hurt him.

Our best bet is just to beat him in 2020.

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#312609 - 06/18/19 03:17 PM Re: Impeach [Re: Gregor]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6726
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I am going to push back a little.

Quote:
The states could have charged him before he was elected

Why would any state have cause to investigate him? Being an ahole does not qualify. Being prominent news item does not qualify. Being "rich" does not qualify. There would have to have been justifiable reason to believe he broke a law.

Quote:
They could be investigating and charging multitudes of wealthy people who are now, and always have, skirted the law because they are wealthy and can get away with it

Having an aggressive tax accountant does not qualify nor does being unethical.

Are there wealthly people who get away with literally "murder"? yep, but that does mean many or all wealthy folks do.

Quote:
They could look into the finances of any corporation and likely find chargeable offenses

While in a world full of vulture capitalists one would or could derive the conclusion every corporation breaks laws to make money, I much rather suspect most try to remain within the lines for the simple reason they don't need to deal with the aggravation of legal proceedings.


Quote:
And your fantasy of Trump in jail will go unfulfilled

Yep. I suspect even if he is indicted in some venue, he still has enough money to delay until he dies.


Quote:
Impeachment will fail too

Yep. The Senate will not convict him even if he came to senate floor and shot Sen Shumer. Senate Republicans fear the Trump Base. A Base driven by bigotry and they have a bigot-in-chief occupying the WH. No Republican can withstand being primaried by these people.

Quote:
More likel to get him re-elected than to hurt him
I suspect it would only make marginal difference and only among independents.

Quote:
Our best bet is just to beat him in 2020
For the most part the people who are going to vote for Mr Trump are a fixed quantity. The national polls will have whomever runs against Mr Trump as winning, so the only feature to look at is state by state polling. What are battleground states doing ... you guys know the drill.

Look I think there are more than enough people who would vote for a stale ham sandwich rather than vote for Mr Trump. The problem will be to get those people to the polls in those critical states which will determine the electoral vote.

Vote ... vote often ... and vote for anyone but Mr Trump
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#312611 - 06/18/19 04:58 PM Re: Impeach [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2522
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I would be surprised if the Dems don't, eventually, impeach. Those for continue to climb in numbers. Its kinda like the current run-up to war with IRAN. Both, I think, will eventually happen. Its the way our government works. First the hints, then 'experts' weigh in, then claims are made, and, finally, BOOM!

Then, after this stuff happens, we will have an examination of the facts. These usually turn out to prove Neither was necessary, nor was impeachment all it was promised. Then everybody will rue the day, beat their breasts, and then move on to probably doing it again as we are really hard learners.

Hope I am dead wrong on either one of these although, if they do impeach, it would be better to do it about 5 months from now. More, hopefully, will be revealed by then. It might be interesting. Simply listing the offenses of this administration will take several days if one also lists those offenses committed by his appointees. If nothing else impeachment would force the Republicans of the Senate to stand up and not vote which will, hopefully add another nail?


Edited by jgw (06/19/19 06:36 PM)

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#312612 - 06/18/19 08:32 PM Re: Impeach [Re: jgw]
Gregor Offline
stranger

Registered: 09/30/16
Posts: 20
The charges against this administration are essentially non-existant.


you can list them on one finger...

Obstruction. But the Republicans don't see it as a crime. Because the investigation proved(to them) that there was no crime.

Whether the House chooses to impeach or not is really unimportant. Trump should be fairly easy to beat in 2020. He's seen the same polls we have...he's losing badly and he knows it.

War with Iran is a really really bad idea. The global economy is already on edge because of Trump's trade wars. Do you have any idea what's going to happen to the price of oil if there's a shooting war in the Persian Gulf? Do you have any idea how that's going to effect the global economy?

War with Iran will start to tip a bunch of other dominoes over and from that point the Trainwreck™ will begin.

I think I'll start a thread for that...It deserves some serious scrutiny.

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#312615 - 06/19/19 12:31 AM Re: Impeach [Re: Gregor]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9038
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#312620 - 06/19/19 06:47 PM Re: Impeach [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2522
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I am curious. Does anybody know if impeachment hearings are public or closed door. Given that the House seems to be doing a LOT of supposed testimony behind closed doors I was just wondering. I suspect that they can't get anybody to testify unless they are doing that behind closed doors then, if not productive, the Dems come out and whine about that. The latest is Hope Hicks. I keep saying this but, the house is supposed to have a right to get testimony, from the administration, but, apparently they are not real interested in forcing the issue.

I also suspect that, irregardless of success, the house would be wise to have all this stuff public instead of hidden. Yet another example of Democratic understanding, civilized behavior, and kindness?

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#312646 - 06/23/19 05:23 AM Re: Impeach [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8549
Loc: North San Diego County
I think first of all they have to go to court to have the right of congress to investigate affirmed. Then they can get some judicial contempt charges going instead of congressional. When people start going to jail, congress is going to get much better cooperation. And US Marshals may work under the Justice Department, but they get their orders from judges.

That's going to take some time. The judicial system is not speedy. But the outcome is fairly obvious. Even conservative judges are not going to change fundamental things in our system like constitutionally enumerated powers of the branches.

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#312656 - 06/24/19 06:40 PM Re: Impeach [Re: pondering_it_all]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6726
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
When people start going to jail, congress is going to get much better cooperation

I think you overlooked the obvious.

If Mr Trump tells you not to cooperate, that is an implicit offer of a pardon.

see Manafort-Hannity emails. I will not give up Mr Trump.

Not even under threat of waterboarding can anyone be compelled to testify if they are so inclined.

We have moved past every era of responsible citizenship. It is a Darwinian death match and the bigots in the country are winning.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#312667 - 06/25/19 04:11 AM Re: Impeach [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8549
Loc: North San Diego County
Contempt charges are not subject to Presidential pardons. They are essentially court orders for the person to sit in jail until they cooperate. Trump cannot overcome a court order. Only a higher court can do that.

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