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#312812 - 07/09/19 03:03 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16957
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The so called "two year Democratic supermajority" was a MYTH.

The six years of Republican obstruction afterwards were very real though.
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#312815 - 07/09/19 04:16 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
The so called "two year Democratic supermajority" was a MYTH.

The six years of Republican obstruction afterwards were very real though.


Oh HELL YEAH...even that microscopic period pissed them off.
They were outraged that Americans would dare to sweep them off their pedestals in exchange for a bunch of traitorous Murrikuh-hatin libcommie demoncrap libtards.
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#312820 - 07/09/19 05:01 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
My beef with the 'but the Republicans!!!' narrative is it frames the argument over not upsetting republicans cuz otherwise you can't do anything.

Screw that. Some may be comfortable with that but why not just be a republican and reform that parties brief, progressive founding.

Democrats could also make common cause with the left as other countries' center right parties do. But Nawp, not here in the good ol' USofA. Only here do you see the center right party more often cross party lines and vote with republicans.

Somehow that phenomenom goes unexplored, unquestioned or even defended.

So the way I see it the Democratic party is the one that's supposed to be left (whatever that means at the moment) while supporting progress (but has too many party scabs to be effective).

Or have I exaggerated?



Edited by chunkstyle (07/09/19 05:02 PM)

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#312822 - 07/09/19 05:14 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10025
Loc: North San Diego County
Democrats had the majority in the senate, but they needed 60 votes to pass anything. They had that 60 votes only for very brief periods, and they also had a few Blue Dogs who were reluctant to vote for government involvement in health care for various reasons. The movement of the bill toward the right had to happen to get the votes. Yes, the hold-outs may have been corrupt, but you have to work with what you have.

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#312823 - 07/09/19 07:57 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
While I don't disagree with working with what you have, coupla things...

You had popular support for a public option. Are you telling me strong public backing has no bearing on our politics? (o.k. , it doesn't but we'll probably disagree over why)

Obviously, there will be districts more far right leaning than center right but how assured are you?
Again, Ojeda might have been hair brained enough to launch an ill conceived presidential run but it's rarely discussed how he had the largest vote point gain of any other democrat in 2018, running on a solid left platform in a state that went heaviest for Trump.
How can you be sure the party isn't selling wolf tickets to their base about the political map?
The DNC scorecard is piss poor for picking winners over losers.

Why are conservative blue dog democrats being protected from more progressive leftists in progressive leftists districts?

The democratic party would have you believe what is possible. I, on the other hand, have stated the Democratic party does little more than manage the lowering of people's expectation with whatever arguments come to hand.


Edited by chunkstyle (07/09/19 07:58 PM)

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#312827 - 07/09/19 11:18 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
While I don't disagree with working with what you have, coupla things...

You had popular support for a public option. Are you telling me strong public backing has no bearing on our politics? (o.k. , it doesn't but we'll probably disagree over why)


Now I have to wonder if you even understand how Congress works.
No...seriously, I'm not joking, because you seem to have forgotten what happened, or you're outright ignoring it like it didn't happen.

Wendell Potter - former CIGNA VP

Quote:
While Pelosi was able to get a bill through the House with a public option provision, she couldn’t control what was happening in the Senate. Although a majority of Senate Democrats supported the public option, the industry knew it only needed one senator who caucused with the Dems to change his mind and kill it.

A senator from Connecticut, the insurance capital of the world, became the industry’s go-to guy. Insurers had spent years investing in Sen. Joe Lieberman, a former Democrat-turned-Independent. During the reform debate, the watchdog group Public Campaign Action Fund, (now called EveryVoice), called Lieberman an “insurance puppet,” noting that insurers had contributed nearly half a million dollars to his campaigns over the years.

The Democrats needed Lieberman’s vote to get reform passed, and insurers knew it. Shortly before the Senate was set to vote on the bill, Lieberman said he would vote for the bill only if the public option was stripped out.


You can peddle your outrage and mass torching of the Democrats all you like but in the end it still boils down to the actions of INDIVIDUALS more than the actions of an entire party.
Specifically, with regard to the Public Option, it ALL HINGED ON ONE MAN - Joe Lieberman.

But go ahead and continue to inveigh against the entire party.
In the end it amounts to a case of WHATABOUTISM.
A very sophisticated and carefully planned case of it to be sure, but it is still nevertheless whataboutism when you strip away all the shiny things.
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#312830 - 07/10/19 01:39 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Jeeze Jeff,

I must have hit a nerve. Yeah I'm sure I was posting right along with you at the time here on the Rant when the ACA was being court challenged etc..

Though it's maybe a first time I've been called 'careful and sophisticated', for some reason I can't help but feel like it's a smear.

I don't know what you're taking about with 'whataboutism'. Maybe you could explain it to me?







Edited by chunkstyle (07/10/19 11:35 AM)

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#312840 - 07/11/19 12:10 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Anyways,

I doubt there's anything unrepairable going on but who knows. Who knows how splits can come about, but it would seem unlikely to be over this row.

public spat at the club

Looks to me like the Party insists on telling the left to 'go eff themselves". Not only have they cut off any future prospects for campaign funds but they've been sidelining their agenda and publicly mocking them.

But thas o.k.
I'm sure it would have been just over the next hill for a centrist 'Green New Deal' amiright?
Ditto on prison and sentencing reform.
And the ACA was actually bending the curve a bit. Not perfect, still the most expensive idea out there with lousy performance metrics but it did bend that curve.

I could go on but I already have eek




Edited by chunkstyle (07/11/19 12:31 PM)

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#312841 - 07/11/19 03:49 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Jeeze Jeff,

I must have hit a nerve. Yeah I'm sure I was posting right along with you at the time here on the Rant when the ACA was being court challenged etc..

Though it's maybe a first time I've been called 'careful and sophisticated', for some reason I can't help but feel like it's a smear.

I don't know what you're taking about with 'whataboutism'. Maybe you could explain it to me?


The facts about what happened with the ACA, and its DOA public option, are a matter of record. Since you were indeed right here along with me during the ACA sausage making, your wholesale condemnation of the entire Democratic Party and everyone in it can only amount to a form of whataboutism.

What else can it be? Bothsideserism?
I dunno...whaddya get when whataboutism and bothesideserism get jiggy with it and have a baby?
Well, it looks like we know now.
You get four years of this:


Perhaps you need to consider the fact that a large part of what we're up against consists of three armies, the Ayn Rand Army, the "Army of God" and the Army of the Stupid.
Lordy Lordy, chunkstyle, are you really determined to go head to head with the Army of the Stupid with the Don Quixotes of the political world?

Your rhetorical monologues on knighthood and the elegance of your quest to find Lady Dulcinea are inspiring to be sure however it doesn't change the fact that a pair of 265 pound drunken windmills couldn't care less.







_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#312844 - 07/11/19 04:22 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16957
Loc: Florida
The freshmen representatives are being told to chill. These things take time and patience. And political support as well as public sentiment.
I don't like Pelosi and never have but right now we don't need to let a media frantic for red meat push us into doing things we might regret later. Pelosi is only temporarily in charge, chosen for her political savvy to keep the Democratic House in order in these confusing times.

The media will happily turn this into a Democratic Civil War when it's nothing but the Speaker doing her job to keep the caucus in line.

Don't worry about the newbies, they'll be fine, and if they are making their constituents happy they'll maybe even get re-elected. Maybe more like them will get elected. Maybe we'll start to see some actual change. Them noobs need to be building coalitions and quietly urging younger and leftier candidates to enter politics. They need to be doing politics not just taking advantage of a handy soapbox.
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