Current Topics
RoundTable for Summer 2020
by Greger
16 minutes 7 seconds ago
What is wealth? How is it made? How is it accounted?
by logtroll
27 minutes 54 seconds ago
Tucker Carlson’s head writer outed: Obscene racism and homophobia exposed
by logtroll
30 minutes 46 seconds ago
What's the Democratic Party doing?
by Greger
44 minutes 30 seconds ago
Mysteries not solved
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 11:15 PM
The Boogaloo Bois
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 10:47 PM
There needs to be a ‘real reckoning’ for Trump’s abuses if Biden wins
by jgw
Yesterday at 07:49 PM
Is it too soon to be talking 2020?
by perotista
Yesterday at 12:01 PM
Coronavirus - everyone was/is wrong?
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 04:27 AM
Coronavirus: The Plague of The 21st Century?
by jgw
07/13/20 07:42 PM
Little Houses
by jgw
07/13/20 07:04 PM
covid-19 cure
by jgw
07/10/20 06:53 PM
What is the purpose of Capitalism?
by pondering_it_all
07/10/20 12:38 AM
WV woman goes to Mexico with her daughter and series of TOP SECRET U.S docs
by pdx rick
07/08/20 11:07 PM
Batsh!t crazy Kanye West just announced he's running for POTUS in 2020.
by perotista
07/07/20 11:45 PM
Drug prices
by jgw
07/07/20 05:29 PM
The Departed - 2020
by pondering_it_all
07/07/20 07:10 AM
Medications that might help against SARS-CoV-2
by pondering_it_all
07/07/20 07:01 AM
Decisions
by pondering_it_all
07/06/20 07:12 PM
congress gets
by jgw
07/05/20 07:49 PM
Forum Stats
6292 Members
60 Forums
16963 Topics
301254 Posts

Max Online: 294 @ 12/06/17 12:57 AM
Google Adsense
Page 10 of 17 < 1 2 ... 8 9 10 11 12 ... 16 17 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#312785 - 07/07/19 02:32 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10031
Loc: North San Diego County
The problem with bolsheviks is they are perfectly willing to sacrifice some (or a lot) of the proletariat so their revolution can come and bring on the perfect system. The Socialist position seems to be against ACA because then not enough people will die. My position is against all those people dying, and that is precisely why Socialism (with a capital S) will never succeed in America. Most of us feel it is better to live with an imperfect system than to die in hopes of a better one. If we elect the right people, then our system will improve.

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.”

And that refusal of Republicans to work with Democrats on ACA was just the worst example to that date of ultrapartisanship. After all, ACA as voted into law was almost exactly RomneyCare. The Democrats big mistake was not to call it RomneyCare For All and give credit where credit was due.

Top
#312788 - 07/07/19 09:36 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
You didn't answer the question PIA.
That had to be one of the silliest responses to a legitimate question.

How do you defend a conservative think tank's plan that maintains the profit motive, delivers the poorest results and costs the most?

Your odd ramblings about bolsheviks was amusing but I'm not sure what it's relevance was to the question.

If you want to go there then I'm happy to oblidge you in a conversation about socialism vs. capitalism's records of sacrificing working people but it would be nice to explain your logic of defending a crap healthcare plan, concieved by conservative think tanks and carried out by conservative democrats that has resulted in high costs with poor outcomes.

Top
#312792 - 07/07/19 07:00 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

How do you defend a conservative think tank's plan that maintains the profit motive, delivers the poorest results and costs the most?





You point out the fact that, despite its many flaws and despite the obstruction of Republicans, and even despite Trump's all out effort to kill it, it still delivers better than what was in place prior.

Your refusal to acknowledge the incremental success of the ACA over what we were stuck with previously is duly noted.

_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

Top
#312794 - 07/07/19 08:03 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10031
Loc: North San Diego County
The little fact that people with my disease would be dead right now without ACA tends to cloud my judgement. I'm definitely not saying it's great, or even good, but it is saving people from early death and medical bankruptcy which is all that Obama and the Democrats could get at the time and ever since. How could they have done better? They simply did not have the votes in Congress.

You want a better system? Then vote for Democrats in 2020, because that's the only way "better" is going to happen. Even Centrist business-shill Democrats will make it better. If a third-party candidate gets enough of the progressive vote, Trump wins and everything gets worse. Not near bad enough for a revolution that reforms American politics. Just worse.

Top
#312796 - 07/07/19 09:38 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16964
Loc: Florida
Yeah...I might even hold my nose and vote Biden when it comes down to the wire. But only because I don't have to get out of my chair to do it.
I think America's mindset right now is just to oust Trump so we can get the country back on the right track. Democratic Socialism has been waiting in the wings for a chance to seize power, 2020 aint lookin' like it's gonna be that chance. But we will still likely gain a few social democrats in congress as well as lots of them winning seats locally.

I'm okay with incremental gains and even a gaggle of neo-libs beats the hell outa this clown show..........
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

Top
#312797 - 07/08/19 04:55 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger


I'm okay with incremental gains and even a gaggle of neo-libs beats the hell outa this clown show..........



Things are bad, worse than bad, but apparently STILL not bad enough for most moderates and independents to finally admit that maybe it is time for a major change.
If Trump wins in 2020 AND we wind up with another Republican trifecta, we will most likely reach the point where things really ARE "THAT BAD".

And we're talking about, "so bad that it really is too late to ever fix it again kind of BAD", so I am sorry to say that human nature is such that a million intellectuals are nothing against 50 million non-intellectuals who just want a moderate in the White House.

Don't you wish that wasn't the case? I sure do, but at age sixty-three all I have to do is think about all the stupid people I've known, and some who I still know, and then I remember that almost 40 percent of the country is even dumber than that, even if they lean a little bit to the Left.

We are so far over to the extreme Right at this point in time that I swear to the whole magnificent bloody lot of you that getting back to slightly left of center is probably going to feel unnervingly like pure socialism to some people, even good people.

It's like being stuck in a darkened room for three weeks and suddenly being pushed outdoors on a sunny day right after you wake up.

By the way, speaking of magnificent bloody lot of you's, I sure do miss Schlack.

But it's sure nice to see JimD the Free Thinker here again.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

Top
#312799 - 07/08/19 11:00 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Obama and the Democrats had majorities in the house, senate and the white house. They could have done whatever it was they wanted. For an example on how it gets done, look at the recent rich man tax cut.
What they did instead was please their corporate donor base, (what were the smart kids calling it? the stakeholders?) and reflexively tried to kiss the arse of the republicans. Both of which were the rational given for killing a public option.
I live in Bills country where rooting for a losing team is a local pathology. I think it's the same pathology as 'Blue no matter who'. Sad people who could just as easily have an 'I'm with her!' bumper sticker.
As long as the center right party can scrape enough victories out of congressional races and the occasional white house victory then I see no reason for them to get off the corporate teat and actually help people. At least not in my lifetime of voting.
'We don't suck as much as the Far Right' may get you votes in 2020. Enough to take the white house maybe. But the center right orientation of the party and it's fealty to corporate cash will mean it will be no solution to a rising populist tide.
But the usual scapegoating will go on. Russian hacking, stupid people voting against their interests, racists running out of the woods to vote, etc... It will never dawn on them to look in the mirror and admit how much they suck.


Edited by chunkstyle (07/08/19 11:09 AM)

Top
#312801 - 07/08/19 01:11 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
I got a duly? Is that as good as a doozy? grin


I never said it wasen't better. Simply still sucks as a result of the parties serving preferences and how much it still sucks wind to it's peers.

So far as I can tell it's only reason for argument has been 'what would the donors think!" and "it doesn't suck as bad as it did".

It still sucks and costs alot. All the talk of studying other countries and choosing the best of all of them is so much hooey. That's what incrementalism is. Slowing the roll of progress for the few over the many.

Top
#312803 - 07/08/19 05:18 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 16964
Loc: Florida
Quote:
They could have done whatever it was they wanted.


They addressed healthcare and improved it. They tried to make it bi-partisan so it would continue to move forward. Republicans refused...the rest is history.

Republicans had both the house the senate and the presidency for two years. What they wanted was tax cuts for the wealthy. They got it but it was based on lies, was far from bi-partisan and will likely be repealed.

You don't get everything you want. You don't necessarily even get to keep what you manage to accomplish.

So we got the ACA. It was never good enough but it was the first thing to get any traction since Hillary Clinton tried to reform healthcare as FLOTUS. The ACA didn't require a public option because those who would buy into it were covered under the Medicaid program. It was a tidy, efficient, businesslike approach to healthcare written by Republicans.

Then they started picking it apart, like a game of Jinga, but certain aspects of it were very very popular and the damned thing refuses to fall apart. It could even be salvaged.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

Top
#312811 - 07/08/19 11:36 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger
They could have done whatever it was they wanted.


Whatever they wanted in seventy-two days spread out in two or three day chunks. The so called "two year Democratic supermajority" was a MYTH.

_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

Top
Page 10 of 17 < 1 2 ... 8 9 10 11 12 ... 16 17 >

Who's Online
1 registered (1 invisible), 18 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Superfly, GreatNewsTonight, danarhea, RoughDraft274, CPWILL
6292 Registered Users
A2