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#312567 - 06/15/19 07:06 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3447
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Bernie AND Biden are just too damned old! I remember when Reagan was no longer home and his wife seemed to be running the nation. So, if you are going to vote for either one of these elders better check the capacities of their wives just in case.

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#312571 - 06/15/19 08:31 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10124
Loc: North San Diego County
Different people age at different rates. The Bernie I heard in an interview the other day sounded perfectly rational and capable. Of course by 2028 that might not be the case.

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#312573 - 06/15/19 09:11 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17044
Loc: Florida
I WANT YOUNG BLOOD TOO!

My generation has pretty much botched up everything they have touched as we entered into end stage capitalism. Joe Biden has been a part of that every step of the way.

Bernie Sanders has led the socialist opposition most of that time. And to be honest, he hasn't led it that well because socialists have lost a lot of ground since the fifties. I imagine Bernie cut his teeth on New York City beatnik coffeehouses, jazz and socialist rhetoric....Heady times those...

Where did the Bohemians go? Who has been pushing for the rights of the workers and the common man? They were still around in the sixties...the folk singers and war protestors.

What in the world has happened to us?
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#312581 - 06/16/19 06:50 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10124
Loc: North San Diego County
I think we mostly got reasonable employment and 401Ks. Of course your $100K in a 401K will last you about two years in retirement. Then it's cat food or prescriptions on your piddling social security check.

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#312586 - 06/16/19 08:22 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: ]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3447
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Socialists lost ground because they allowed the Right to redefine their title. Modern socialists are rarely the extreme groups that want the state to have everything because the state is the citizens.

Except, in the main, the only difference between most 'socialist' countries of northern Europe is that we continue to have For Profit Healthcare which is a terrible mistake for not only healthcare itself, but from a financial point of view. It is, in other words something that is logical as public education, police departments and fire departments, libraries, etc.

The simple fact is that there are some things, financed and supplied by the state, in the interest of the common good that belong.

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#312588 - 06/16/19 10:46 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: jgw]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17044
Loc: Florida
Quote:
socialists are rarely the extreme groups that want the state to have everything because the state is the citizens.

Socialists have never been extreme groups that want the state to have everything.

Socialists are now and have always been supporters of the working class.

The Proletariet.

It's an ongoing existential struggle that has been with us throughout our history in one form or another.It is, perhaps, what sets us apart from the other animals.

Politics is where it plays out as drama.

I see it as a strategy game.

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#312590 - 06/17/19 05:56 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: ]
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3447
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I am curious. I can't find a single truly socialist nation. If Socialism is so great why are not a bunch of countries socialist? I am talking about nations where the airlines, railroads, computer companies, etc. are all owned by the state.

Just wondering. I googled this and the only stuff I found were articles on failed Socialist states (usually starting with the Soviet Union).

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#312596 - 06/17/19 09:51 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10124
Loc: North San Diego County
I think that's the reason everybody has moved on from that definition of Socialism. The problem with it is one of scale. Central planning only works for a small enterprise, like a Kibbutz. When the enterprise gets larger, the planning grows exponentially. Beyond a small size, the planning fails.

So what actually works is a mixed economy, where government supplies the services it can supply best, and everything else is private enterprise. That's what they have in the most "socialist" countries, and in the least "socialist" countries. It's just a matter of degree. Like we think police should be employees of the state. In Somalia, they think police should be private. You can make a huge list of things the government runs here in the US, and compare those things to other countries. So-called socialist Scandinavian countries probably overlap our items by 95%!

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#312598 - 06/17/19 10:05 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: jgw]
Greger Online   content


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17044
Loc: Florida
Because every government is part capitalist and part socialist.

They are twisted together like strands of DNA. Can't have one without the other.

Most European nations are social democracies. It's a model that's working all over the place. Workers are paid well and working conditions are good. There is paid family leave and a 30 day paid vacation. Higher education is free. Medical insurance is provided. Life is pretty good for everybody.

We can have that here. And the rich will still be rich.

It's a win win situation.
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#312599 - 06/18/19 12:41 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: ]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10277
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Gregor
It's a win win situation.

And that is precisely why it won’t fly... tonbricks
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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