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#312959 - 07/21/19 09:17 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1622
Originally Posted By: Greger

Well, yeah, pretty much. How long has it taken you to figure this out, Grasshopper?


Somewhere between Bill Clinton and Obama.

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#312960 - 07/21/19 04:37 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14174
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Will Rodgers had an entirely different political landscape to navigate than the one we navigate today. At least there was some leftism in his time, though the second great purge was getting underway. There was still some.
Hardly any today and the Democratic party is going into overdrive to see that there isn't anymore in 2020.


At least there was some leftism in 1932 in the USA? People were just then furtively dipping their toe. How do you expect it to happen, just all of sudden, like switching on a light switch? It took forty years to drag us this far to the Right.

I think the landscape wasn't much different than right now.
The so called "Business Plot" featuring a consortium of far Right business interests were contemplating an armed overthrow of the Roosevelt administration in 1933.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#312961 - 07/21/19 04:39 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14174
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
"Last week, the Boston Herald (7/11/19) decried Ocasio-Cortez, Tlaib and Omar as far-left “bullies” who were undermining Pelosi, and “sowing division” at a time when the party “needs to project a unified—and more centrist—front to retain its majority and knock Donald Trump from office.” The piece did not, however, scrutinize Pelosi’s political positions—or even identify them at all.

This is a common occurrence in media, and has the effect of normalizing the right wing of the party as the default. Constantly reminders that Sanders, Ocasio-Cortez and co. are leftists prime the news consumer to be on the defensive. “You are about to hear socialist propaganda,” is the subtle message delivered. But an analogous message is not transmitted if others are not identified as on the right. Understanding the power of this technique, in 2015, nearly 90,000 Britons signed a petition asking the BBC, in the interests of even-handedness, to start describing Prime Minister David Cameron as “right-wing,” just as it constantly called Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn “left-wing.”

Full article

Lets me honest Jeff. You may be comfortable voting right wing and feel absolved if there is a D next to the name but I no longer am. I won't vote right wing and have had years of resentment having been hectored by libs into doing so. Lesser of two evils and all that rot.
I have concluded the Democratic party is a paid instrument to keep any avenue of leftist political expression neutralized. To ignore it is simple willful ignorance at this point in these dark and creative times.


Then enjoy four more years of Trump!
Sorry that you interpret my saying I can't afford four more years of Trump as "hectoring". Clearly you can afford it.
Good for you.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#312962 - 07/21/19 05:20 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15318
Loc: Florida
Trump isn't the problem. He's a symptom. Electing a crappy Democrat(Biden) is going to make the problem worse. It just kicks the can down the road. No telling which reality tv star or Nascar driver they'll elect in 2024 after four years of boring Democratic leadership.

Actually leaving Trump in office until the economy finally collapses might be better than Biden. At least in the long run. Might be pretty ugly here in the short term where we all live...

Trump is a symptom
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#312965 - 07/22/19 12:20 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8731
Loc: North San Diego County
Ever see Idiocracy? It will definitely be a WWE wrestler.

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#312966 - 07/22/19 01:19 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1622
There was much left wing activity before the 1930's, Jeff.
Working class people were organizing and agitating since the 1600's. To say we were just dipping our toe into the water by te 1930's would be inaccurate to say the least.
Heard of Eugene Debs?
High plains farm revolts?
IWW?
Didn't they burn a couple of guys for being anarchists in 1920's?

Dipping our toe? I think we read very different histories Jeff. We have purged any leftist thinking in this country so effectively that we've given guy's like JGW the idea that it's all right to simply say the left merely believes in clear food labeling.

Again, you might have a way to rationalize voting for right wing candidates but I can no longer do it. Democrats have been carrying water for the ultra right and giving them an even freer hand to explore the outer limits of their ideology by snuffing any left wing counter proposals.

Like a green new deal
living wage
medicare4all
etc...

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#312967 - 07/22/19 04:27 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8731
Loc: North San Diego County
Back in the 30's a lot of people were socialist and even communist in the US. The peak of this was in 1945 when our allies the Soviets essentially defeated the Nazis. But then came the Red Scare but also the brutal invasions and occupations as the Iron Curtain went up. That had a huge effect on the left in the US. And I think it continues today, with stuff like Russia's invasion of Ukraine. shooting down commercial airliners, China's genocide against the Uighurs, etc. Nobody wants to be THAT socialist. The communists in the US are pretty much just a few mentally ill folks who thrive on the notoriety. The remaining left are union-supporters, employee-owned company supporters, now medicare4all supporters: In other words, FDR-style Democrats. Just a little bit left of centrist Democrats.

So the "left's" positions are not hard for the rest of the Democrats to agree with. They just think that they might not be able to implement them, because half the country is still scared of "socialists coming for their kids and their guns". I don't think centrists are the left's enemies: I think they are just practical. Convince the majority of voters that medicare4all is good, and the Democrats will do it.

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#312968 - 07/22/19 11:13 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14174
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Back in the 30's a lot of people were socialist and even communist in the US. The peak of this was in 1945 when our allies the Soviets essentially defeated the Nazis.


Eugene V. Debs ran as a Socialist candidate for President of the United States five times, including 1900 (earning 0.6% of the popular vote), 1904 (3.0%), 1908 (2.8%), 1912 (6.0%) and 1920.(3.4%)
At its peak in August 1917, IWW membership was 150,000.
So yes, we were dipping our toe.

Fast forward to the Thirties, the Crash, the Depression.
Perhaps I understated more than a little.
What was the peak membership in the USA of socialist and communist groups?
But I'm looking for the kind of numbers that win elections. Majority numbers, the kinds of numbers that move countries one direction or another.

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

But then came the Red Scare but also the brutal invasions and occupations as the Iron Curtain went up. That had a huge effect on the left in the US. And I think it continues today, with stuff like Russia's invasion of Ukraine. shooting down commercial airliners, China's genocide against the Uighurs, etc. Nobody wants to be THAT socialist. The communists in the US are pretty much just a few mentally ill folks who thrive on the notoriety. The remaining left are union-supporters, employee-owned company supporters, now medicare4all supporters: In other words, FDR-style Democrats. Just a little bit left of centrist Democrats.

So the "left's" positions are not hard for the rest of the Democrats to agree with.


Of course they're not difficult to align with. The problem is that we didn't fight hard enough back then to counter the smears, anymore than we're fighting hard enough now. The labels stuck back then and Republicans are using that now.
Why are we resistant to ducking and weaving, so that we can avoid being bashed on the head repeatedly?


Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

They just think that they might not be able to implement them, because half the country is still scared of "socialists coming for their kids and their guns". I don't think centrists are the left's enemies: I think they are just practical. Convince the majority of voters that medicare4all is good, and the Democrats will do it.


Convince the majority of voters that FDR style New Deal social democracy is not the brutal confiscatory boogeyman of the Soviets or Venezuelans.
CONTROL the DIALOGUE by CONTROLLING the power of the LABELS.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#312969 - 07/22/19 11:17 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14174
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

Again, you might have a way to rationalize voting for right wing candidates but I can no longer do it.


Can no longer do it? It's amazing that we can field 23 candidates, most all of them significantly to the Left of Trump, even a moderate milquetoast who is a 90's retread and STILL to the Left of Trump, and be tagged a closet Rightie or Right Wing Enabler.

So, moving to the Left is moving to the Right because it's not Left ENOUGH, so we're going to allow Trump to move us even further to the Right because we are not satisfied with the smaller move to the Left.

I think I get the strategy now. I think I understand it. ROTFMOL
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#312970 - 07/22/19 12:51 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1622
Most of the country doesn't have a concept of what a left alternative is and believes the framing from the right on it. Like it's confiscatory, makes people wear plywood suits, drive concrete cars etc...
Eugene Debs is one example. IWW is another. Unions a third socialist and communist, etc, etc, etc. Most are gone now. But we've discussed all this in the thread 'What Left'.
If you think being left of Trump makes you left I don't know what to say. Political dyslexia? I would consider the democrats to be center right to far right and their history of supporting right wingers over leftists is clear. So is selling out Unions and working class people.
We just had a marvelous example of that with the house leadership attacking it's left flank and opening up further attacks on it by the president.
Mocking left wing proposals is another example of punching left.
Closing primary challenges and making the party a club is another example.
For some, these actions should further erode the center rights base of support. My instincts tell me the center right leadership is banking on running a monkey and winning since Trump is so offensive to them. Time will tell.
I'd rather vote for Eugene Debs and not be a part of the rightward drift.


Edited by chunkstyle (07/22/19 12:53 PM)

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