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#312741 - 07/02/19 12:56 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 444
Loc: Sterling Heights, MI, USA
Originally Posted By: Greger
AOC and the democratic socialists only make up about half a dozen votes.


Every flood begins with a few rain drops...


Edited by Ujest Shurly (07/02/19 12:58 PM)
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#312759 - 07/04/19 06:58 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8734
Loc: North San Diego County
Still, somebody raising a stink in Congress is a lot better than business as usual. Voters get outraged by some of the stuff that normally goes on, and sometimes their otherwise complacent Congress-critters react to letters and phone calls if they get enough of them. You don't need to move 51% of the population to get some action. You just need to impress those Congressmen with a few thousand contacts all pushing the same issue.

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#312762 - 07/04/19 02:24 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1626
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
You don't need to move 51% of the population to get some action. You just need to impress those Congressmen with a few thousand contacts all pushing the same issue.


While I agree with you that democrats need to go for it and do politics that last comment has little evidence to support it.

Oh wait. Gay marriage.

I can think of little else done for the average american in the last 25 years that has had much of a positive impact on peoples economic or political lives in a real, tangible way.

Forget about a green new deal or a 'Fight For 15', Medicare for all, etc etc etc.

Democratic Neoliberalism, to borrow an anology, is like nailing jello to a wall.



Edited by chunkstyle (07/04/19 02:25 PM)

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#312767 - 07/04/19 04:09 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8734
Loc: North San Diego County
ACA. It has a HUGE impact for people who would otherwise be uninsurable, like me.

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#312772 - 07/05/19 01:25 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1626
For me and many others, the ACA was a republican plan (Romney care anyone?) that went right on compromises that were thought to help get at least some republicans on board (it didn't) while punching left and killing a public option. Or did I mischaracterize?

But yeah, still paying the most while getting the least over all the other developed countries. 50 Million still uninsured. Lots of tasty means testing with varying levels of assistance for varying classes which would never promote resentments and racial tension.

No wonder Medicare 4 All is so unpopular. The very idea of NOT having Dunkin Donuts and Lockheed running our health care industrial sector is cray.

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#312776 - 07/05/19 04:39 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15344
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The very idea of NOT having Dunkin Donuts and Lockheed running our health care industrial sector is cray.
I don't think that Boeing Health Care plan is gonna fly.

But, to many, the idea of having government in charge of it sounds even crazier...
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#312779 - 07/06/19 04:01 AM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8734
Loc: North San Diego County
Simply having ACA versus having nothing means lots of people get to live. The Republican Plan is Go Home and Die. Sure it could be better, lots better, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Just elect more Democrats and it will get better. In particular the gap between the bottom income for ACA and the upper income for Medicare in some states is totally insane. Only the working poor have to Go Home and Die!

It would have made far more sense to completely replace Medicaid with an ACA that reaches all the way to zero income, with the poorest people exempt from copays and deductibles. Instead we have the two systems (ACA and Medicaid) that interface very badly.

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#312780 - 07/06/19 12:14 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1626
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Simply having ACA versus having nothing means lots of people get to live.

It would have made far more sense to completely replace Medicaid with an ACA that reaches all the way to zero income, with the poorest people exempt from copays and deductibles. Instead we have the two systems (ACA and Medicaid) that interface very badly.


Classic lowering of expectations from the center right.
A preference for markets and market forces over public goods and services.
So are you saying your in favor of replacing medicare with a subsidized private health care industry?


Most expensive healthcare, lousy outcomes, shareholder profits assured.

You never answered the question what thousand voters could sway a representative to enact meaningful legislation.

Did you mean a few thousand corporate lobbyists? If so, I would agree. Look no further than the ACA



Edited by chunkstyle (07/06/19 12:17 PM)

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#312782 - 07/06/19 01:00 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1626
Wow PIA, this topic's got me wound up in the morning. Almost beats coffee.
In hindsight, I've found the ACA to be seriously lacking and deeply flawed with the most harmful being the profit motive (which our departed and missed keyboard warrior, JGW, would agree).

So how do you argue in favor of a for profit system that delivers the most expensive services with lousy results that are a necessity for the average person?
If your argument is faultless, would you be willing to extend it to other important areas of our life, such as food, water air and ecosystems?
Oh wait...
Republican, Democrat,..
Were here already.

What is the criteria of argument you use to rationalize these basic and necessary resources we battle over politically?


Edited by chunkstyle (07/06/19 01:13 PM)

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#312784 - 07/06/19 10:23 PM Re: Democratic Socialism [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15344
Loc: Florida
Y'know...in 2008 Democrats had control. Affordable healthcare was the goal they set. They tried, good god how they tried, to bring some Republicans into the deal to make it a bi-partisan effort.

Republicans hijacked it, called it socialism, took the house in 2010 and Congress has been gridlocked since then.

If the ACA had worked the way it was written and intended it would have been a massive success. It got hobbled when the red states boycotted the Medicaid part of it...Hell it's a success anyway and once we dump Trump we can get back to work on getting people insured.
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