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#313390 - 08/10/19 08:40 PM This is American Conservatism
Senator Hatrack Offline
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Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
To conserve something is to want to preserve and protect it. American Conservatives want to return our government to doing only what is listed in Article I Section 8 of our Constitution. Anything that is not expressly authorized by it is to be either eliminated or done by the various state or local governments.
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#313391 - 08/10/19 08:49 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
A literalist argument that implies that the Constitution is some kind of ship in a glass bottle?

Is that really what the founders intended? Their written works do not entirely agree with that assumption.

What's next, Tentherism? Sovereign Citizen-hood?
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#313394 - 08/10/19 10:08 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
"On every question of construction [of the Constitution] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or intended against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." Thomas Jefferson

"Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government." James Madison

A limited government is what our Founding Fathers intended. That is why Article I Section 8 is list of what our government is allowed to do. Our Founding Fathers put our Constitution in writing to ensure that our government would always be a limited one.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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#313395 - 08/10/19 10:48 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Jefferson on The Lousiana Purchase

Quote:
"The Constitution has made no provision for our holding foreign territory, still less of incorporating foreign nations into our Union. The executive in seizing a fugitive occurrence which so much advances the good of this country, have done an act beyond the Constitution. The Legislature in casting behind them metaphysical subtleties, and risking themselves like faithful servants, must ... throw themselves on their country for doing for them unauthorized what we know they would have done for themselves had they been in a situation to do it."


So even strict constructionist Jefferson was guilty of a bit of Hamiltonianism.

We can have running battles between Hamiltonians and Jeffersonians all day long.
I guess you'd better hammer out another petition to match the one you have demanding FDR be removed from the dime.

Gotta get that bastard Hamilton removed from the ten spot too!
What a commie he was.
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#313396 - 08/10/19 10:52 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Hell, for that matter, maybe you should advocate a return to the Articles of Confederation!
Now THERE'S some REAL originalism!!
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#313398 - 08/10/19 11:17 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
The Constitutional Convention of 1787 was held because the Articles of Confederation didn't work. Our Constitution is a compilation of many documents to limit government starting with the Magna Carta.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#313399 - 08/11/19 12:09 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10345
Loc: North San Diego County
But authorized or not most Americans WANT social security. I doubt the supreme court is ever going to declare it unconstitutional, because the backlash would be huge. I think this is why we have Amendments to the Constitution. The Congress and the Courts have to respect public desires or else they actually amend the Constitution.

So the "founding father's original meaning" position is pretty silly. Amending the Constitution is right there in the Constitution itself. Many of those amendments are complete reversals of the founders positions.

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#313400 - 08/11/19 12:50 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The Constitutional Convention of 1787 was held because the Articles of Confederation didn't work. Our Constitution is a compilation of many documents to limit government starting with the Magna Carta.


It is amusing to see you up there, believing you're teaching a history class to a bunch of ignoramuses.
I know full well why the CC1787 was held.

But I am suggesting (sarcastically) that if originalism is your forte, the AOC is even more "original" than the Constitution.
Why settle for second best? wink
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#313401 - 08/11/19 12:52 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

So the "founding father's original meaning" position is pretty silly. Amending the Constitution is right there in the Constitution itself. Many of those amendments are complete reversals of the founders positions.


I wish I had the almost perfect rote memorization of the founders papers that some of you appear to have, but I distinctly remember another paper in which at least one of the founders made special mention of the fact that the day would come when the Constitution might no longer serve the needs of a society way into the future, and that it might need to be brought into sync.

Sorry if that sounds vague.
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#313410 - 08/11/19 05:01 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: pondering_it_all]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
But authorized or not most Americans WANT social security. I doubt the supreme court is ever going to declare it unconstitutional, because the backlash would be huge. I think this is why we have Amendments to the Constitution. The Congress and the Courts have to respect public desires or else they actually amend the Constitution.

So the "founding father's original meaning" position is pretty silly. Amending the Constitution is right there in the Constitution itself. Many of those amendments are complete reversals of the founders positions.


The Supreme Court probably will not rule Social Security un-Constitutional. Even though they should. The Supreme Court made that decision after FDR's court packing scheme which might have helped some of SC Justices look at Social Security a little more favorably. Then in 1960 with the decision of Flemming v. Nestor the SC ruled that no one is entitled to the money they have paid into it. Should enough Americans learn that they might get a little upset. How much will people want Social Security when it goes bankrupt? How many will want it when they learn that their children and grandchildren will have to pay about 30% of their income, before they pay their income tax, so that those who are on Social Security will continue to get their (falsely) promised benefits? Had the SC ruled Social Security un-Constitutional this mess would not have been created.

In Helvering v. Davis, which ruled that Social Security was Constitutional, Justice Cardozo based his decision in the case on Alexander Hamilton's interpretation of the general Welfare clause. He should not have done that. He shouldn't have done that because Hamilton had nothing to with writing the general Welfare clause. James Madison wrote it. This is what Madison had to say about the general Welfare clause.

"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America."

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/363/603.html
https://www.law.cornell.edu/socsec/course/readings/301us619.htm
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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