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#313438 - 08/11/19 07:13 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: BC]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10001
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Interesting thought... I don't think that anyone doubts the amazingly deep and powerful mentations that the founders put into the formation of our government. It is my far less learned opinion that the Constitution is more a document of guidance and problem-solving protocols than it is a set of immutable rules set down forever and ever (not that anyone here has asserted that). It is a good thing that it requires interpretation, as such dialogue, even if heated at times, keeps it alive.

Now for the interesting part - who amongst our national leadership, or aspirants for the office of President, do you think has the intellectual chops to have been a member of the Constitutional Convention?

Let's see... Elizabeth Warren, ............................ :ohsnap:
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#313441 - 08/11/19 07:30 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9521
Loc: North San Diego County
What has changed in a very large way is that the people writing the Constitution were all gentlemen with a well developed sense of ethics and morality. Those who were not Christian were mostly Deists. They assumed that the White Gentlemen land-owners who ran the Republic would always do the right thing for the Republic. Unfortunately, this is far from true now but it is nothing new. Communism was doomed because it assumes "Each according to his ability, and each according his need." But humans are lazy and greedy, and fully half of them are lower than average intelligence.

"the inference would be that there is not sufficient virtue among men for self government" is a direct quote from Madison, that reflects this attitude. Well, guess what? There IS not sufficient virtue among men to run a country depending on that virtue. Charity seems to be filled with charlatons who buy private jets instead of feeding the poor. We tried for personal virtue, and it failed miserably.

So a government has to educate children, pay police and firemen, build roads, etc. because otherwise we have to live in Trump's proverbial shethole country.

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#313442 - 08/11/19 07:39 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: pondering_it_all]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
What has changed in a very large way is that the people writing the Constitution were all gentlemen with a well developed sense of ethics and morality. Those who were not Christian were mostly Deists. They assumed that the White Gentlemen land-owners who ran the Republic would always do the right thing for the Republic. Unfortunately, this is far from true now but it is nothing new. Communism was doomed because it assumes "Each according to his ability, and each according his need." But humans are lazy and greedy, and fully half of them are lower than average intelligence.

"the inference would be that there is not sufficient virtue among men for self government" is a direct quote from Madison, that reflects this attitude. Well, guess what? There IS not sufficient virtue among men to run a country depending on that virtue. Charity seems to be filled with charlatons who buy private jets instead of feeding the poor. We tried for personal virtue, and it failed miserably.

So a government has to educate children, pay police and firemen, build roads, etc. because otherwise we have to live in Trump's proverbial shethole country.

Yes, it the job of a government to do those things. The government whose job to do them is not our federal government but our state and local governments.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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#313443 - 08/11/19 08:04 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42500
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Nothing created by men is perfect. What our Founding Fathers got right when they wrote our Constitution was its limitation on the powers of our government.

How'd that powerful State's Rights 1776 attempt workout for them? Oh...that's right - it didn't.

It was replaced by a strong central government thingy in 1789. smile
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#313444 - 08/11/19 08:04 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   happy
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15409
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

Yes, it the job of a government to do those things. The government whose job to do them is not our federal government but our state and local governments.


It wasn't UNTIL a very few decades ago when anti-discrimation laws were passed that restaurants, hotels, gas stations, even restroom facilities were finally and YES FORCIBLY desegregated, that "the environment" got largely cleared of the kind of outright DANGERS to black motorists.



IT BECAME A SERIOUS CRIME to deny goods and services to people based on race, creed or color.
That is what it took to finally clear the logjam.

All the competitive pressure in the world was unable to stop a bunch of rednecks with shotguns, bullwhips, ropes and even MURIATIC ACID from exercising Jim Crow laws and "Sunset Town" warnings.



So it finally fell to the Federal Government to do the heavy lifting when states failed to do it for themselves.

The general welfare does not share your rather extreme anti-government bias.
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#313446 - 08/11/19 08:09 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 9521
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
who amongst our national leadership, or aspirants for the office of President, do you think has the intellectual chops to have been a member of the Constitutional Convention?


Mostly the Constitutional scholars and experts who have demonstrated their intelligence and sense of fairness: Barack Obama, Laurence Tribe, Robert Reich. I had William F. Buckley in my list, but I see he died back in 2008 which says a lot about current Republican intellectualism.

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#313448 - 08/11/19 08:11 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42500
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
pdx rick did you run before you could walk? No, you did not. Just as you did not run before you could walk our government could not run, implement the radical ideas of freedom as widely as they are now, before it could walk. So for you to criticize our government's supposed failure to implement the radical ideas of freedom is at best 20/20 hindsight. At worst it is the ridiculous idea that someone could run before they could walk.


If the idea that the white man had inalienable rights, it would logically follow that women did too, and so did children, and so did slaves - basically everyone else also too had these same inalienable rights.

...but, because those "keep the status quo" aka "conserve and preserve" ideals got into the way - that didn't happen. smile
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#313449 - 08/11/19 08:17 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42500
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
who amongst our national leadership, or aspirants for the office of President, do you think has the intellectual chops to have been a member of the Constitutional Convention?


Mostly the Constitutional scholars and experts who have demonstrated their intelligence and sense of fairness: Barack Obama, Laurence Tribe, Robert Reich. I had William F. Buckley in my list, but I see he died back in 2008 which says a lot about current Republican intellectualism.

Thanks to the orange Fatass currently occupying the White House, Conservatives lost their momentum to hold a Constitutional re-write Convention by having the majority of State Legislatures of thirty-seven to rewrite the Constitution in the very stated goal of a very theocratic (God, guns and ammo) voice aka Sharia-lite.

smile
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#313450 - 08/11/19 08:20 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 42500
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

ISIS or American Conservative?

• Theocracy for government
• Holy book as Science
• Their religion is the only real one
• Become violent when others speak against them
• Guns solve everything
• Accept only their own 'kind'

Hmm
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#313459 - 08/11/19 09:21 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: pdx rick

ISIS or American Conservative?

• Theocracy for government
• Holy book as Science
• Their religion is the only real one
• Become violent when others speak against them
• Guns solve everything
• Accept only their own 'kind'

Hmm

Here is another example of pdx rick's ignorance. I'm an atheist.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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