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#313495 - 08/12/19 12:58 AM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41585
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Thank you showing that have absolutely no idea of Socialism is.

Pot, meet kettle. smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#313496 - 08/12/19 01:00 AM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8731
Loc: North San Diego County
Right out of Wikipedia:

Quote:
Consensus historians of the 1950s, such as Richard Hofstadter, according to Lary May:

[B]elieved that the prosperity and apparent class harmony of the post-World War II era reflected a return to the true Americanism rooted in liberal capitalism and the pursuit of individual opportunity that had made fundamental conflicts over resources a thing of the past. They argued that the New Deal was a conservative movement that built a welfare state, guided by experts, that saved rather than transformed liberal capitalism.
Liberal historians argue that Roosevelt restored hope and self-respect to tens of millions of desperate people, built labor unions, upgraded the national infrastructure and saved capitalism in his first term when he could have destroyed it and easily nationalized the banks and the railroads. Historians generally agree that apart from building up labor unions, the New Deal did not substantially alter the distribution of power within American capitalism. "The New Deal brought about limited change in the nation's power structure". The New Deal preserved democracy in the United States in a historic period of uncertainty and crises when in many other countries democracy failed.


Leftists actually complained that FDR did not nationalize and seize the means of production when he had the chance.

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#313502 - 08/12/19 03:38 AM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Thank you showing that have absolutely no idea of Socialism is.

Pot, meet kettle. smile

At one time I was a member of the Socialist Worker's Party. When I was I read and still do read Socialist literature. When was the last time you read any of Lenin's writings? How about Engels? Do you know who Charles Fournier is? Do you know what Marx's list of 10 things that will help turn a country socialist? Here's a hint they are in The Communist Manifesto. I own a copy of it, do you?
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#313508 - 08/12/19 01:00 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14185
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Thank you showing that have absolutely no idea of Socialism is.

Pot, meet kettle. smile

At one time I was a member of the Socialist Worker's Party. When I was I read and still do read Socialist literature. When was the last time you read any of Lenin's writings? How about Engels? Do you know who Charles Fournier is? Do you know what Marx's list of 10 things that will help turn a country socialist? Here's a hint they are in The Communist Manifesto. I own a copy of it, do you?


And why would I own a copy of The Communist Manifesto?
I don't own a Che Guevara tee shirt either.
Are you red-baiting me again? You do that a lot.

Will Rogers is famous for having said, "I am not a member of any organized political party, I am a Democrat."

My oldest brother was briefly a member of the SWP (1969-1971) and as I remember it, the total membership of the party in the United States never went beyond a few thousand people. When he went to Linda Jenness' first fundraiser for her SWP POTUS candidacy, the entire multitude of supporters fit into a residential back yard in Greenbelt, Maryland. I know because he dragged me along to the BBQ.
It was her only fundraiser on the entire East Coast.

That means that it's not much different than being a member of a local ham radio club in your area.
Current membership in the Democratic Socialists of America stands at 56,000 people.
Hell, for that matter, membership in the CPUSA was maybe a few hundred thousand at its peak.
My point is, being a member of a tiny party for a little while forty or fifty years ago does not make one an expert on left leaning politics.

And that tiny Socialist Workers Party, or the DSA for that matter, does not exert an omnipotent or universal influence on leftist thought.
Did you know that the DSA dissed Bernie Sanders back in 2015 when he announced his candidacy?
Basically, the reaction amounted to something along the lines of:

Quote:
"Yawn, what a sellout."


Quote:
"Not a real socialist."


Sorry Senator Hatrack but I hate to disappoint you when I reveal that I don't peruse a weekly copy of "The Militant" while drinking my morning coffee.

Although after three or four days of being stridently red-baited by you, I succumbed to temptation this morning and lo and behold, the lead story in The Militant this morning is about a bunch of Kentucky coal miners who were denied their pay by a bankrupt coal company, and they are now blocking the only rail artery in or out of their town.

Seems their union, the United Mine Workers of America, withered away thanks to anti-union pressure and now these workers have no recourse, despite retired UMWA brothers showing up from other parts of the country to offer support.

Quote:
“We had to step up. We were robbed. They didn’t use a gun, but they robbed us anyway,” Chris Lewis, one of the original six miners, told the Militant at the encampment Aug. 7. “We have to give a voice to coal miners. We aren’t asking for nothing we haven’t worked for,” he said.


Quote:
Several retired UMWA members visited the protest July 30. “We’re UMWA members,” Stanley Sturgill, 74, and a 41-year member of the union, told the Mountain Eagle. “Those guys aren’t. There’s no UMWA in Kentucky anymore, but we’re all brothers.”


Hmmm, maybe a little bit of "socialist" union power might have helped these hard working men.
President Trump promised he would help them but I guess that was just another line in his reality TV show script.

And as a Director of Photography and film editor, I have to tell you about an old industry saying:

There is NO REALITY in reality TV.

And there is absolutely no link with reality in your perception of me or anybody on the left that I have ever associated with.

_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#313521 - 08/12/19 07:35 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
[quote=Senator Hatrack]Thank you showing that have absolutely no idea of Socialism is.

Pot, meet kettle. smile

At one time I was a member of the Socialist Worker's Party. When I was I read and still do read Socialist literature. When was the last time you read any of Lenin's writings? How about Engels? Do you know who Charles Fournier is? Do you know what Marx's list of 10 things that will help turn a country socialist? Here's a hint they are in The Communist Manifesto. I own a copy of it, do you?


Quote:
And why would I own a copy of The Communist Manifesto?
I don't own a Che Guevara tee shirt either.
Are you red-baiting me again? You do that a lot.

Why should own a copy of The Communist Manifesto? Because you might learn something from it. You didn't know that the progressive income tax was a Marxist idea until I told it was. If you had a copy of the Communist Manifesto you would have known that. I don't a Che Guevara T-shirt either. The only "red baiting" that is being done is in your perception of my comments. So whenever I mention anything related to Communism in my comments to you; past, present, and future, I am not red baiting you!
Quote:
Will Rogers is famous for having said, "I am not a member of any organized political party, I am a Democrat."

Will Rogers was a very funny man who did a great job of making fun of politicians on both sides of the aisle.
Quote:
My oldest brother was briefly a member of the SWP (1969-1971) and as I remember it, the total membership of the party in the United States never went beyond a few thousand people. When he went to Linda Jenness' first fundraiser for her SWP POTUS candidacy, the entire multitude of supporters fit into a residential back yard in Greenbelt, Maryland. I know because he dragged me along to the BBQ.
It was her only fundraiser on the entire East Coast.

That means that it's not much different than being a member of a local ham radio club in your area.
Current membership in the Democratic Socialists of America stands at 56,000 people.
Hell, for that matter, membership in the CPUSA was maybe a few hundred thousand at its peak.
My point is, being a member of a tiny party for a little while forty or fifty years ago does not make one an expert on left leaning politics.

When I was a member of the SWP there were about 1,500 members here in MN. So your memory of the size of the party is wrong. A friend of mine is a ham radio operator and he told me there are about 300 in the Twin Cities. They are a larger organization than you guessed it to be. While the DSA may have only 56,000 members nationwide they do have a member who is in the House of Representatives, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. That will help increase the DSA's membership.

Quote:
And that tiny Socialist Workers Party, or the DSA for that matter, does not exert an omnipotent or universal influence on leftist thought.

No, but with Rep. Ocasio-Cortez in Congress the influence of the DSA will grow.
Quote:
Did you know that the DSA dissed Bernie Sanders back in 2015 when he announced his candidacy?
Basically, the reaction amounted to something along the lines of:

Quote:
"Yawn, what a sellout."


Quote:
"Not a real socialist."


Quote:
Sorry Senator Hatrack but I hate to disappoint you when I reveal that I don't peruse a weekly copy of "The Militant" while drinking my morning coffee.

Although after three or four days of being stridently red-baited by you, I succumbed to temptation this morning and lo and behold, the lead story in The Militant this morning is about a bunch of Kentucky coal miners who were denied their pay by a bankrupt coal company, and they are now blocking the only rail artery in or out of their town.

Seems their union, the United Mine Workers of America, withered away thanks to anti-union pressure and now these workers have no recourse, despite retired UMWA brothers showing up from other parts of the country to offer support.

“We had to step up. We were robbed. They didn’t use a gun, but they robbed us anyway,” Chris Lewis, one of the original six miners, told the Militant at the encampment Aug. 7. “We have to give a voice to coal miners. We aren’t asking for nothing we haven’t worked for,” he said.


Quote:
Several retired UMWA members visited the protest July 30. “We’re UMWA members,” Stanley Sturgill, 74, and a 41-year member of the union, told the Mountain Eagle. “Those guys aren’t. There’s no UMWA in Kentucky anymore, but we’re all brothers.”


Hmmm, maybe a little bit of "socialist" union power might have helped these hard working men.
President Trump promised he would help them but I guess that was just another line in his reality TV show script.

And as a Director of Photography and film editor, I have to tell you about an old industry saying:

There is NO REALITY in reality TV.

And there is absolutely no link with reality in your perception of me or anybody on the left that I have ever associated with.

It has been over 40 years since I read The Militant. I had forgotten the name of SWP newspaper and how often it was published. That you knew it was a weekly and where to get a copy of it is an indication of your leftist leanings. As a conservative I don't know where to find a copy of The Militant. And NO that last comment is not red baiting!

As the men who are or were in the United Mine Workers of America maybe their union might be little stronger if the platform of the DNC didn't have plank in it calling for the abolition of coal mining. I do believe that the Democrat's 2016 Presidential candidate said that if elected she would shut down all of the coal mines in the country. Not that any President has the power or authority to do that.
This comment does not contain any red baiting!
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#313522 - 08/12/19 08:34 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15334
Loc: Florida
It's a pleasure to have you back, Senator Hatrack.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#313524 - 08/12/19 09:37 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8731
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
I do believe that the Democrat's 2016 Presidential candidate said that if elected she would shut down all of the coal mines in the country.


I don't think she said, as President, she would shut down the coal mines. Here are her comments in context:

Quote:
Look, we have serious economic problems in many parts of our country. And Roland is absolutely right. Instead of dividing people the way Donald Trump does, let's reunite around policies that will bring jobs and opportunities to all these underserved poor communities.

So for example, I'm the only candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity using clean renewable energy as the key into coal country. Because we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right?

And we're going to make it clear that we don't want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories.

Now we've got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don't want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied on.


She was talking about economic forces (like frakking) putting coal miners out of business. Which is in agreement with your statement about her lack of power to do anything directly. It was happening then and it's happened even more now. Her opponents seized on that comment to claim she would shut down coal mines. More of the usual Republican anti-Clinton smear. It never ends.

What she was really talking about was retraining those folks at something else, instead of just forgetting them and leaving them to shuffle around mostly not working as coal jobs dwindle. Renewable energy is a field that is growing as rapidly as coal is going away. Trump has done the miners a huge disservice by leading them to believe he would somehow "make coal great again" and bring back the jobs. So they don't get that retraining, and they don't get jobs.


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#313530 - 08/12/19 10:43 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Greger]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: MN
Thanks, Greger.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#313533 - 08/12/19 11:18 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14185
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

Why should own a copy of The Communist Manifesto? Because you might learn something from it. You didn't know that the progressive income tax was a Marxist idea until I told it was. If you had a copy of the Communist Manifesto you would have known that. I don't a Che Guevara T-shirt either. The only "red baiting" that is being done is in your perception of my comments. So whenever I mention anything related to Communism in my comments to you; past, present, and future, I am not red baiting you!


In the United States, the first progressive income tax was established by the Revenue Act of 1862. The act was signed into law by President Abraham Lincoln, and replaced the Revenue Act of 1861, which had imposed a flat income tax of 3% on incomes above $800.
I didn't say that I'd never SEEN a copy of the Communist Manifesto,
I said that I don't own a copy of it.

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

When I was a member of the SWP there were about 1,500 members here in MN. So your memory of the size of the party is wrong. A friend of mine is a ham radio operator and he told me there are about 300 in the Twin Cities.


Three hundred what? Three hundred hams or three hundred ham clubs?

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

They are a larger organization than you guessed it to be. While the DSA may have only 56,000 members nationwide they do have a member who is in the House of Representatives, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. That will help increase the DSA's membership.


All the AOC's in the world still won't shift our economic system to socialism. Here's what might:
FAILURE of CAPITALISM to serve those who use, create and spend capital.


Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

It has been over 40 years since I read The Militant. I had forgotten the name of SWP newspaper and how often it was published. That you knew it was a weekly and where to get a copy of it is an indication of your leftist leanings. As a conservative I don't know where to find a copy of The Militant. And NO that last comment is not red baiting!


That I knew it was a weekly and where to get it is a function of Wikipedia. ROTFMOL tinfoilhat

Seriously, you don't realize that The Militant is online and you don't realize that typing "Socialist Workers Party" into Wiki gets you a capsule description of the party and their organ?

Did you know that you can look stuff up on this thing?



Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

As the men who are or were in the United Mine Workers of America maybe their union might be little stronger if the platform of the DNC didn't have plank in it calling for the abolition of coal mining. I do believe that the Democrat's 2016 Presidential candidate said that if elected she would shut down all of the coal mines in the country. Not that any President has the power or authority to do that.


Power and authority? They're not genies.
The union was destroyed partly by anti-union pressure and mostly by the fact that demand for coal is and has been on a downward spiral since the 1960's.
There are fewer coal miners in this country than Arby's employees.
Believe it or not the vast majority of them are now in Wyoming, not Kentucky.
(See: IRON RANGE)

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

This comment does not contain any red baiting!


No...stating that my ability to track down a copy of "The Militant" is an indicator of my commie-ness contains red-baiting.

But you know what? You go ahead and keep on red-baiting me.
Others here think I'm an illiberal enabler of Conserv-A-Dems, which is essentially like saying I'm Joe Lieberman.

In the end it all boils down to my sig line, from an old Leon Russell song "Magic Mirror".
Maybe it all balances out in the end.

"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#313546 - 08/13/19 03:04 AM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas

[quote=Senator Hatrack]
This comment does not contain any red baiting!

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

That was just one friend giving a friend a hard time. I apologize for it.


Absolutely no apologies necessary, just stop telling me how I think.
Ask me.
Instead of reciting boring crap from Marx and Lenin, ASK ME what I think about the issues.

We have FIRE regulations for a reason, yes?
Fire can be a useful tool, because it can warm your home, forge your steel and iron, cook your food, etc.
It can also burn down entire towns if left unchecked.

Capitalism is a lot like FIRE. Left unregulated and unchecked, it can become predatory and very damaging, and it can unearth some pretty awful unintended consequences.

And yet when properly harnessed, capitalism can lift entire generations out of poverty, stimulate innovation and launch entirely new industries.

Capitalism has demonstrated the capability to serve as a useful and rewarding tool to serve the middle class if it operates under the right kind of regulation.

OMG I just realized I hit EDIT on YOUR POST instead of MINE.

Major screwup on MY part, it was a huge mistake.
I will attempt to recover your original post.

_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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