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#313331 - 08/09/19 06:18 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
I agree with much of what you say here Jeff. The 70's do seem to be a critical decade and the Powell memo was a key factor.
The reactionary politics started much earlier as a response to FDR's new deal but yeah. That Powell memo.

I would disagree with you, or defend my positions by saying the Democratic party didn't, as a whole, push this agenda but they eventually joined it and ran with it when it became lucrative to do so. Clinton really carried the water for much of their agenda in the eighties. As did many other democrats. That faction is firmly in control of the party today. That structure will accept no blame for the losses in 2016 or explain progressive victories in places they insist couldn't be won and wrote off.


It's called the Russia investigation. It was in the news and has been a soap opera drama for the last 3 years. It was being led by a guy named Mueller.I didn't move any goal posts. In fact, I only commented on what a convenient distraction it has been. I could care less about it other than being used as a distraction by the party and has inhibited any critique over party decision making, campaign policies or effectiveness.


I have commented more than once about alternatives:

Support separate progressive campaign funding structures for progressive candidates viability. The DNC is at war with progressives.
Support progressive candidates. Don't vote for neoliberal ones foisted on your districts.
Learn how this lousy establishment maintains power and attack it there.
Actually, literally help progressive campaigns. Canvas, phone bank, etc..
Practice some solidarity and start looking at the problem thru class struggle instead of a corporate human resource problem.

Why is it my job to sell you? Why do you reduce a critique to being about a binary choice all the time?


Edited by chunkstyle (08/09/19 06:22 PM)

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#313334 - 08/09/19 07:19 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   happy

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14430
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
I agree with much of what you say here Jeff. The 70's do seem to be a critical decade and the Powell memo was a key factor.
The reactionary politics started much earlier as a response to FDR's new deal but yeah. That Powell memo.

I would disagree with you, or defend my positions by saying the Democratic party didn't, as a whole, push this agenda but they eventually joined it and ran with it when it became lucrative to do so. Clinton really carried the water for much of their agenda in the eighties. As did many other democrats. That faction is firmly in control of the party today. That structure will accept no blame for the losses in 2016 or explain progressive victories in places they insist couldn't be won and wrote off.


It's called the Russia investigation. It was in the news and has been a soap opera drama for the last 3 years. It was being led by a guy named Mueller.I didn't move any goal posts. In fact, I only commented on what a convenient distraction it has been. I could care less about it other than being used as a distraction by the party and has inhibited any critique over party decision making, campaign policies or effectiveness.


I have commented more than once about alternatives:

Support separate progressive campaign funding structures for progressive candidates viability. The DNC is at war with progressives.
Support progressive candidates. Don't vote for neoliberal ones foisted on your districts.
Learn how this lousy establishment maintains power and attack it there.
Actually, literally help progressive campaigns. Canvas, phone bank, etc..
Practice some solidarity and start looking at the problem thru class struggle instead of a corporate human resource problem.

Why is it my job to sell you? Why do you reduce a critique to being about a binary choice all the time?


Quote:
Why is it my job to sell you? Why do you reduce a critique to being about a binary choice all the time?


Scroll back and look at how many times you've condemned me, in BINARY fashion, for making the decision to, at the very least, vote against Trump by voting for a Democrat.
You sound like "If you're not Antifa, you must be PRO-FA!"

It's not your job to sell me, that is why I said "NO SALE" to your recommendation to leave the POTUS line blank.

Not only is it not your job, what you're selling is a vote for Trump even if you don't see it that way.
I can't afford it.

And if you look at my posting history, which I know you won't, you'll see that I've made pretty much the exact same recommendations you have in Paragraph Four of your response, your "comment about alternatives".
I've been recommending the same thing for better than five years.

I might have even been the first one on the Rant to recommend that progressives do to the Democratic Party what the Tea Party did to the GOP, only the SMART version.

I might have also been the first OR ONE OF the first to point out that FreedomWorks had made Alinsky required reading, and one of the first to point out the Alinsky is great for leading a revolution but not so great at actually leading once the revolution is won, which is why Republicans can't lead anymore. They used Alinsky to mobilize but now that they're at the table, they're still trying to kill everyone in range.
The reason the Left put the Alinsky book down is because they had WON, and now they had to lead.
But we became complacent, and the Right took us on the way the Japanese took on US carmakers.

I'm tired of defending myself for crimes I never committed.
You are certainly free to continue labeling me but I'll be ignoring your broadsides from now on.
I'm much too interested in trying to figure out how we can beat Trump, so that we can at least stop the hemorrhaging.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#313337 - 08/09/19 08:07 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
"Not only is it not your job, what you're selling is a vote for Trump even if you don't see it that way.
I can't afford it."

I'm not selling you on anything. Vote for anyone you want, I could care less. I'm just bringing up points about why the power within the Democratic party sucks and how it has lead to a condition like electing Trump (IMO, always).

Class resentments are real and legitimate but seems to confound that same Democratic power structure whereas it gets harnessed by Republicans. That's my opinion based on my observations and experiences. You may have a different take. That's fine and I don't mind hearing about it.

You'll have to pardon me if I push back on what I consider fallacy. Such as Democrats being 'left', Democrats support Labor, etc. (Not saying this is what you believe, just what has become a popular political narrative).

I think the Establishment will try to wind a rebound victory off Trump, like they hoped for in 2016. If they do I can't see any upside to another Neoliberal administration. I can only see downsides. I don't make over 200k/year and live in the suburbs. I don't have residuals or am able to live off interest like the rentier I'm a peasant that has it's labor extracted. That informs my opinion and perspective. I don't expect yours to be identical.

We had some training in our district by a protege of Saul Alinsky's. I found his process of community organizing very effective way of organizing community efforts.





Edited by chunkstyle (08/09/19 08:08 PM)

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#313338 - 08/09/19 08:08 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15648
Loc: Florida
Quote:
So were back to 'she'd be great to have a beer with'?

Yep! She'd be great for children and families, she'd already have that 12 buck minimum wage on the books with plans to increase it to 15 by 2020. ACA would be polished up and running smoothly, immigration reform would be well under way, and a lot less people would be dead from ICE abuse and Trump cultists shooting Mexicans. Wouldn't be no children in cages and new taxes would be introduced to help level the income playing field. The Republican Tax cuts would never have occurred and we'd be marching steadily towards that Global Utopian Social Democracy that I one day dream of.
But you'd still be pissed because BERNIE!!!
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#313339 - 08/09/19 08:10 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
I couldn't disagree more. You speak of fantasies but I hammer her record.

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#313340 - 08/09/19 08:16 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   happy

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14430
Loc: Whittier, California
He thinks I make 200+ a year.
I wish.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#313342 - 08/09/19 08:29 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
Jeesus christ on a crutch Jeff!
Not everything is about you or implicates you.
I'm explaining in the broadest possible terms, what shapes my political view and don't expect my situation to be the same as yours. Nor would it be the same as someone living in the suburban hog farms making 200k and votes democrat.

That does not mean that I think your living in the Suburban hog farms making 200k.

FFS.

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#313343 - 08/09/19 09:37 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
"It’s so ridiculous that it’s laughable. It’s so ridiculous. But it just shows, though, that launching a smear campaign is the only response that they have to the truth, which means they’re afraid of the truth because it’s real. And more and more people are seeing past the façade that they have built up for so long."

Full Article

A timely article out today by Taibbi. A dive into the schism taking place in the Democratic party and it's base represented by the Tulsi Gabbard/Kamala Harris fight.

Similar to the Sanders/Clinton schism without the baggage.

A nice treat to see Matt Taibbi and Katie Halper working together.


Edited by chunkstyle (08/09/19 09:40 PM)

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#313344 - 08/09/19 09:58 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   happy

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14430
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
"It’s so ridiculous that it’s laughable. It’s so ridiculous. But it just shows, though, that launching a smear campaign is the only response that they have to the truth, which means they’re afraid of the truth because it’s real. And more and more people are seeing past the façade that they have built up for so long."

Full Article

A timely article out today by Taibbi. A dive into the schism taking place in the Democratic party and it's base represented by the Tulsi Gabbard/Kamala Harris fight.

Similar to the Sanders/Clinton schism without the baggage.

A nice treat to see Matt Taibbi and Katie Halper working together.


I read it in bed this morning, great article and they both make excellent points. The difference is, if Gabbard wins the nomination I will be in the booth pulling the G lever.

You've already made it plain that you will only support whoever fits your exact expectations. Any deviation from those is grounds for your withdrawal.

I cannot afford that luxury. Neither can you but there is no way I will ever convince you of that.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

Top
#313345 - 08/09/19 10:14 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15648
Loc: Florida
Doesn't make a rat's ass one way or another whether you vote or who you vote for, never has really. Clinton won by 3 million votes and lost the election did your vote matter in that election? Democrats gonna win this time, whoever gets the non nom.
They're going to take the Senate too.

Gabbard and Harris? Why is anybody even talking about them? Slow news day?
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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