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#313562 - 08/13/19 02:18 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17160
I think, my friend, that you are missing an extremely and definitional point. It isn't whether a regime is communist or fascist - the point is that both are totalitarian. So, you are actually reenforcing the point that totalitarianism is bad. I completely agree. Whatever label you want to put on it: communist, fascist, republican... smile

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#313565 - 08/13/19 02:32 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Hitler was totalitarian, Pres. Trump is not. To say Trump is like Hitler in any way is ludicrous!
I want to challenge this a little: In what way is Trump not totalitarian? He likes "acting" heads because they don't have to go through the democratic process of being voted up or down by Congress. He dictates policy whether or not it comports with current law. He avoids any democratic processes like the plague (and he's a famous germaphobe. He says so). He fires any dissenters. What other aspects of totalitarian rule are missing?

With one small change what you wrote describes our Previous President.
"I want to challenge this a little: In what way is Obama not totalitarian? He likes "acting" heads because they don't have to go through the democratic process of being voted up or down by Congress. He dictates policy whether or not it comports with current law. He avoids any democratic processes like the plague..."
"I have a pen and a phone." Pres. Obama
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-i-will-use-my-pen-and-phone-to-take-on-congress/
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#313566 - 08/13/19 02:47 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17160
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Here's a hint they are in The Communist Manifesto. I own a copy of it, do you? ....
You don't need to own a copy of it to read it. You can get one at your local library.
I have both read and have a copy of the Communist Manifesto (Political Science is kinda my jam.) It was, and is, a boring read. There are many things that Marx got right, but his description of how a country becomes "communist" was not one of them. I have often said that Marx himself was a lousy Marxist. Philosophically, Das Kapital was an explanation of how economies work and how workers get exploited. Rather than watch that process unfold, he sought to make the changes himself. Didn't work.

In the real world, totalitarianism is totalitarianism, whatever label you want to put on it. And every developed country in the world - especially the capitalist ones - have elements of "socialism" in their operation. It is what makes them humane. In my view, running around shouting "Socialism" all the time is just agitprop from the Ministry of Silly Walks. Even "Democratic Socialists" aren't "Socialists" in the classic definition of the term. (Indeed, I find their self-definition silly.)

So, being serious, what we are really talking about is an Eco-Social Market Economy. Once we get past putting silly labels on things we can get down to actually doing good things for the country. To some, however, that is counterproductive. They want to avoid doing good things at all costs. Even embarrassing themselves by putting labels on everything.

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#313567 - 08/13/19 02:51 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17160
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Hitler was totalitarian, Pres. Trump is not. To say Trump is like Hitler in any way is ludicrous!
I want to challenge this a little: In what way is Trump not totalitarian? He likes "acting" heads because they don't have to go through the democratic process of being voted up or down by Congress. He dictates policy whether or not it comports with current law. He avoids any democratic processes like the plague (and he's a famous germaphobe. He says so). He fires any dissenters. What other aspects of totalitarian rule are missing?

With one small change what you wrote describes our Previous President.
"I want to challenge this a little: In what way is Obama not totalitarian? He likes "acting" heads because they don't have to go through the democratic process of being voted up or down by Congress. He dictates policy whether or not it comports with current law. He avoids any democratic processes like the plague..."
"I have a pen and a phone." Pres. Obama
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-i-will-use-my-pen-and-phone-to-take-on-congress/
Now you are being just being silly and obtuse. I won't play that game. Sorry.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#313568 - 08/13/19 03:03 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17160
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The reason I mentioned the Green New Deal and nationalized health care is to point one very important fact about leftists. They are very patient. Nationalized health care was first proposed in 1904. It became a reality in 2010. It took leftists 106 years but they finally got nationalized health care. They believe that eventually communism will prevail. As with the implementation of nationalized health care if it takes 100 years to achieve their goal they don't care. They know it isn't going to happen this year but are convinced that eventually they will succeed.
If you think the ACA is "nationalized healthcare" you are either incredibly uninformed or self-delusional. We do have "Nationalized Healthcare" in this country - it is run by the Veteran's administration and the Department of Defense. None of Medicare, Medicaid or the ACA (or any of the other government-sponsored insurance programs) are "nationalized healthcare". I kinda wish we did have it. (Okay, technically, I do. But that is a different issue.)

If you wanna get all "definitional" in here, "Socialism" is "government control of the means of production." No one has seized the hospital system in the United States. Socialism is not a social welfare program, or a progressive tax system. Period. Full Stop. (No really, just stop!) That is what social democracy (not democratic socialism) is all about - ensuring that the government is providing for the "general welfare" - you know that bit in the US Constitution?! Maybe you have read and potentially own a copy? People get confused, and outraged, because it has the same root, "social", but it is definitively, categorically, and in all other ways, not the same thing.

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#313572 - 08/13/19 03:32 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The reason I mentioned the Green New Deal and nationalized health care is to point one very important fact about leftists. They are very patient. Nationalized health care was first proposed in 1904. It became a reality in 2010. It took leftists 106 years but they finally got nationalized health care. They believe that eventually communism will prevail. As with the implementation of nationalized health care if it takes 100 years to achieve their goal they don't care. They know it isn't going to happen this year but are convinced that eventually they will succeed.
If you think the ACA is "nationalized healthcare" you are either incredibly uninformed or self-delusional. We do have "Nationalized Healthcare" in this country - it is run by the Veteran's administration and the Department of Defense. None of Medicare, Medicaid or the ACA (or any of the other government-sponsored insurance programs) are "nationalized healthcare". I kinda wish we did have it. (Okay, technically, I do. But that is a different issue.)

If you wanna get all "definitional" in here, "Socialism" is "government control of the means of production." No one has seized the hospital system in the United States. Socialism is not a social welfare program, or a progressive tax system. Period. Full Stop. (No really, just stop!) That is what social democracy (not democratic socialism) is all about - ensuring that the government is providing for the "general welfare" - you know that bit in the US Constitution?! Maybe you have read and potentially own a copy? People get confused, and outraged, because it has the same root, "social", but it is definitively, categorically, and in all other ways, not the same thing.

This is what the author of the general Welfare clause meant by it.
"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America." James Madison
The general Welfare clause DOES NOT give our government carte blanche to do whatever it wants to do!
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#313573 - 08/13/19 03:36 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Hitler was totalitarian, Pres. Trump is not. To say Trump is like Hitler in any way is ludicrous!
I want to challenge this a little: In what way is Trump not totalitarian? He likes "acting" heads because they don't have to go through the democratic process of being voted up or down by Congress. He dictates policy whether or not it comports with current law. He avoids any democratic processes like the plague (and he's a famous germaphobe. He says so). He fires any dissenters. What other aspects of totalitarian rule are missing?


With one small change what you wrote describes our Previous President.
"I want to challenge this a little: In what way is Obama not totalitarian? He likes "acting" heads because they don't have to go through the democratic process of being voted up or down by Congress. He dictates policy whether or not it comports with current law. He avoids any democratic processes like the plague..."
"I have a pen and a phone." Pres. Obama
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-i-will-use-my-pen-and-phone-to-take-on-congress/
Now you are being just being silly and obtuse. I won't play that game. Sorry.

No I am not being silly and obtuse! Nor am I playing a game.Pres. Obama went around Congress whenever he felt like it.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#313577 - 08/13/19 04:05 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   happy

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14443
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

No I am not being silly and obtuse! Nor am I playing a game.Pres. Obama went around Congress whenever he felt like it.


More like he did it whenever Mitch McConnell blocked House legislation from Democrats (which was almost all the time) and yes, Trump is doing much the same thing, which is why all of Trump's executive orders will be rolled back in much the same way in 2021.

Get your Kleenex out, because Mitch is going down in 2020 just like his boss.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#313586 - 08/13/19 04:41 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15667
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Pres. Obama went around Congress whenever he felt like it.

What president hasn't? A president wields an enormous amount of power and when he see's something that needs to be done he often has the authority to make it happen. Donald Trump has claimed new powers and established an entire new set of rules for what it means to be president. Republicans now support massive deficits and soaring national debt. Both of these things will make life easier for Elizabeth Warren when she takes over in January of 2021.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#313587 - 08/13/19 04:48 PM Re: Hitler vs Trump [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1655
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
[quote=Senator Hatrack]
No I am not being silly and obtuse! Nor am I playing a game.Pres. Obama went around Congress whenever he felt like it.


Quote:
More like he did it whenever Mitch McConnell blocked House legislation from Democrats (which was almost all the time) and yes, Trump is doing much the same thing, which is why all of Trump's executive orders will be rolled back in much the same way in 2021.

Get your Kleenex out, because Mitch is going down in 2020 just like his boss.

I believe you are wrong about of those two elections. Sen. McConnell won't lose because incumbents in Congress have a 95% reelection rate. Especially when the member of Congress has the seniority and power that McConnell does. Pres. Trump will be reelected because of what all of the Democrats seeking to be their party's Presidential nominee are competing amongst themselves to see who is promising the most "free stuff" from our government.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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