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#313664 - 08/14/19 02:30 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Mellowicious Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 9624
Loc: flyover country
As I said, there is no reason to believe that women and/or minorities would be inherently better. But in large enough numbers, with varying enough backgrounds, things might be different for a while.

As a starting place I think a woman who made her living as, oh, a barmaid, is going to have a perspective closer to mine than someone whose "Pup" bought his way into Harvard and left him millions. Might not be anything wrong with that millionaire, but we keep saying we want a change, right?
_________________________
Julia
Long time passing

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#313665 - 08/14/19 02:31 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14174
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle


I would put it higher than different point of view but anything that splits with what we have as conventional political wisdom would be a good start.


Does it absolutely HAVE to be an instant, binary and drastic split?
I ask not because of a need to advocate for incrementalism, but because my impression is that incrementalism is about as radical as it gets for societies short of what IS actually instant: REVOLUTION. (usually bloody - sometimes not)



There's no Osterizer 7-speed levels of LOW, SPIN, CHOP, WHIP, PUREE, HIGH.



There's just three speeds:

1. STAGNANT (stable)
2. INCREMENTAL
3. "Oh SH!T"



_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#313669 - 08/14/19 02:40 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1622
At this moment in history what has 'incrementalism' accomplished for average Americans?

On the other hand, the rich have done wonderfully with their revolutionary goals.

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#313671 - 08/14/19 02:43 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Mellowicious]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1622
I agree Mellow. But then I would draw your attention to the most recent DNC election rules. They put them in for one reason. To not allow another of the bootless and horseless get elected.

Even Republicans haven't pulled that.

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#313672 - 08/14/19 02:45 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14174
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
At this moment in history what has 'incrementalism' accomplished for average Americans?

On the other hand, the rich have done wonderfully with their revolutionary goals.



You have put that out there quite often and I agree.
That's it. I agree.

Still doesn't change what I said just above, that it APPEARS to ME (I can only speak for myself on this) that society only has the three gears, 1. STABLE, 2. INCRE and 3. Oh SH!T!

So you have to pick. There's nothing in between 2 and 3, it is a very wide span between those two "speeds".

It's like puttering along at 45 mph, dropping it into 1st gear and sidestepping the clutch and flooring the gas at the same time.

_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#313674 - 08/14/19 02:53 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1622
Sorry Jeff. I don't see the current situation as a countertop appliance analogy with some arbitrarily imposed settings.

I made a remark sometime after 2016 to a relative that we already lost most of the New Deal consensus and solidarity after much struggle. We would probably be lucky to land somewhere around the gilded age. We hit the gilded age of inequality a couple of years ago. That's some remarkably regressive speed.

But I'll play along. What does it mean if a blender has insane reverse settings?


Edited by chunkstyle (08/14/19 02:54 AM)

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#313682 - 08/14/19 03:37 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14174
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Sorry Jeff. I don't see the current situation as a countertop appliance analogy with some arbitrarily imposed settings.

I made a remark sometime after 2016 to a relative that we already lost most of the New Deal consensus and solidarity after much struggle. We would probably be lucky to land somewhere around the gilded age. We hit the gilded age of inequality a couple of years ago. That's some remarkably regressive speed.

But I'll play along. What does it mean if a blender has insane reverse settings?


I said that this ISN'T a countertop appliance.
Re-read what I posted.

What is your opinion of

1. Stable
2. Incremental
3. Oh SH!T!!

Do you agree or disagree that the gulf between 2 and 3 is extremely wide?


Edited by Jeffery J. Haas (08/14/19 03:38 AM)
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#313689 - 08/14/19 12:05 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Kaine Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 2166
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
On the other hand, the rich have done wonderfully with their revolutionary goals.

I wonder how many steps it took them to get this far - or did they do it in one giant leap?

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#313690 - 08/14/19 12:09 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1622
Uhhh yes. You making an argument for a three speed blender as it relates to societies.

You've making an argument for what exactly? That you'd rather have it be incrementalism than 'Oh s***!'. I think we've hit the OS setting awhile ago. We have lived thru a revolutionary transformation of our society and not for the better (IMO).

It's heaven on earth if your rich and hell to be poor. That's where 'incrementalism has gotten us with the democratic party. They have been complicit for much of this state of affairs having decided to join hands with republicans and dismantle the New Deal for corporate patronage. That's a pretty revolutionary act in and of itself. I'll say it again, having an adversary sell you out is one thing but having an ally do it to you is another.



We may disagree with this forever but incrementalism is just a lowering of expectations. 'I can't do 15/hr. but I could do perhaps 12', etc.

Your case is it leads to 'oh sh!t'. Well for some maybe. the trick is to make sure it's the right ones like FDR did.

I simply believe were at a point were radical transformation of the democratic party is necessary. Anything short of that and it's going to be an Flynt for everyone who isn't in the club.

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#313691 - 08/14/19 12:13 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Kaine]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1622
Clinton was a giant leap, IMO.
That's not some 'hatred' talking but a look at the record of what he and Hillary accomplished while in office.
In hindsight, it was pretty revolutionary stuff.

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