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#326052 - 05/25/20 02:01 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
GreatNewsTonight Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/27/20
Posts: 264
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: logtroll

Geez, GNT, your emotional and irrational spleen against Bernie really thins your credibility as an objective critic.


Is "spleen" referring to the post or to the poster?
Boy howdy folks, be nice to each other.


Well, you know, Greger did clarify it. It's referring to the poster.

Greger: "I agree, you're emotional and irrational."

What he said to me:

YOU. ARE. EMOTIONAL. AND. IRRATIONAL.

If this isn't a personal attack, I don't know what else is.

I must say, I'm disappointed. I thought this place was different.


It is different, but it's not perfect.

"Nothing's clean Howard, but we do our best."



I'd dispute the notion that this is doing our best.
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#326053 - 05/25/20 02:03 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
GreatNewsTonight Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/27/20
Posts: 264
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: Greger
"your emotional and irrational"...

I agree, you're emotional and irrational. I'm okay with that. I expect it from Democrats. But once you take a hard right turn like that, I just lump you with the republicans. It's not an attack on you, it's it's an ideological divide that can't be breached.


Come on guys, what is this?
Can we all just...try to get along?





Please do leave me out of this "you all" because *I've* never personally attacked anybody here.
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#326054 - 05/25/20 02:44 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10328
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Just got back... guess I touched a nerve.

Iím not that sensitive, so I donít have any comment about any personal attack. But calling Sanders a loser over and over because he didnít sponsor any major legislation didnít look rational to me. Itís just my opinion, and I linked an article to support my view.

It wasnít a personal attack, it was an observation. After reading my link, do you still hold the opinion that Sanders is an empty footnote in history?
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To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.Ē
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#326055 - 05/25/20 03:17 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: logtroll]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 827
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Just got back... guess I touched a nerve.

Iím not that sensitive, so I donít have any comment about any personal attack. But calling Sanders a loser over and over because he didnít sponsor any major legislation didnít look rational to me. Itís just my opinion, and I linked an article to support my view.

It wasnít a personal attack, it was an observation. After reading my link, do you still hold the opinion that Sanders is an empty footnote in history?

Now that's interesting. Footnote in history. Possible. Is Goldwater a footnote in history? He was the one who started the conservative movement by being blown out in the 1964 presidential election. His movement didn't take hold until 1980 with the election of Reagan. But his movement, I'll call it traditional conservatism has morphed into something completely different, a different type/s of conservatism Goldwater wouldn't recognize. Once known as the father of Conservatism, most modern day conservatives call him a libertarian because his brand wasn't neo or religious conservatism. Barry wanted to get those religious nuts out of the Republican Party.

Sanders, footnote, perhaps? That depends on how his ideas catch on with the American public, all of the public and not just a faction within the Democratic Party. He could be looked back on as the father of a new progressive movement. Or relegated to just a footnote when talking about Democratic Primaries. The one who lost to Hillary and then lost to Biden. Some primary losers are remembered and become more than just a footnote. Reagan challenged Ford in 1976, he lost to Ford and Ford lost to Carter. Many historians put the blame for Ford's loss on Reagan's challenge. But Ronnie won the presidency in 1980, so that's what he is remembered for.

Teddy Kennedy is also well documented in 1980 for challenging Carter. Again, historians always list Teddy's challenge of Jimmy as one of the reason Jimmy lost in 1980. But Ted Kennedy's fame is being JFK's and RFK's brother. Much more than his challenge to Carter.

Sanders, a footnote to history is possible, maybe even probable. It all depends whether a young fresh faced progressive picks up his ideas and runs with them and wins. Time will tell.
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#326056 - 05/25/20 03:18 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17271
Loc: Florida
Quote:
YOU. ARE. EMOTIONAL. AND. IRRATIONAL.

If this isn't a personal attack, I don't know what else is.


Son, if you thought that was a personal attack you have no idea of what I am capable of delivering. But the Admin has spoken and I'm going to delete that comment.

I had hoped we could be friends but I'm happy the other way too.
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#326057 - 05/25/20 03:19 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: logtroll]
GreatNewsTonight Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/27/20
Posts: 264
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Just got back... guess I touched a nerve.

Iím not that sensitive, so I donít have any comment about any personal attack. But calling Sanders a loser over and over because he didnít sponsor any major legislation didnít look rational to me. Itís just my opinion, and I linked an article to support my view.

It wasnít a personal attack, it was an observation. After reading my link, do you still hold the opinion that Sanders is an empty footnote in history?


OK, so now I'm over-sensitive too, not just emotional and irrational. Gee, thanks. I guess it comes with the territory, right? You know, emotional, sensitive, irrational people... What's next, hysterical?

I've already replied to your observation on amendments. Post #326037 above. I was fully aware that he has sponsored amendments; just not impressed by that.

And I didn't say Sanders is a loser because he didn't sponsor major legislation. I said he is ineffective for this reason. Yes, I did call him a loser, but that's because of another reason: he lost. Twice. And one of them, to one of the worst candidates in History.

No, I don't hold the opinion that Sanders is an empty footnote in history. Like I said, he does have a claim to fame: having helped the election of Donald J. Trump.


Edited by GreatNewsTonight (05/25/20 03:45 AM)
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#326058 - 05/25/20 03:24 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
GreatNewsTonight Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/27/20
Posts: 264
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
YOU. ARE. EMOTIONAL. AND. IRRATIONAL.

If this isn't a personal attack, I don't know what else is.


Son, if you thought that was a personal attack you have no idea of what I am capable of delivering. But the Admin has spoken and I'm going to delete that comment.

I had hoped we could be friends but I'm happy the other way too.


If you say so, sure, I'll believe you that you have the ability to deliver more damaging personal attacks; but that one was one, no doubt. Can't be any clearer.

Why are you under the impression that I'm making any friendship difficult? I'm not the one making personal attacks. So let me get this straight. We disagree on the matter of Bernie Sanders. You then attack me (although I did not attack you). Therefore, you say I can't be your friend; you'll be happy the other way - that is, enemy? What do you want, a sounding board? If someone doesn't agree with you, the person is to be attacked, and is to become your enemy? Bravo.

By the way I'm not your son. At my advanced age, my parents are long deceased. Please don't "son" me. It's condescending.


Edited by GreatNewsTonight (05/25/20 03:49 AM)
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Please take COVID-19 seriously; don't panic but don't deny it; practice social distancing (stay 6ft from people); wash your hands a lot, don't touch your face, don't gather with too many people, so that you help us contain it.

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#326059 - 05/25/20 03:25 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17425
Originally Posted By: perotista
Like everything else political, I think whether or not one views a candidate, a person as being charismatic is a personal opinion. For my purpose it was pitting candidate against candidate. How one's charismatic personality can attract voters to him that otherwise may not have voted for him.

The top four according to Larry Sabato was FDR, JFK, Reagan and Bill Clinton as having dynamic charismatic personalities. I'd have to add Obama to that list, while in my opinion, Obama had less charisma that those four. I was also talking about attracting voters from America as a whole, not just one's supporters.

Supporters of certain candidates are usually entranced by that candidate. But how that candidates fairs with those who aren't his avid supporters is where charisma comes into play, especially with independents, the non-affiliated voter.

I do think Sanders had more charisma than Biden, but we're talking about the Democratic primary voters. Less than a third of all voters nationwide. Sanders didn't have a chance to test those waters and to see if he could or couldn't attract the independent voter. He was tested only by Democrats for the most part although some independents did vote in the open primary states. The primaries are more about name recognition and political stances, ideology, party loyalist.

You haven't yet got into the battle for the less political, the less to non-partisan and non-affiliated voter. They haven't had a chance to weigh in yet.

There's no doubt in my mind that Biden isn't charismatic in the sense of a Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, JFK or even an Obama. But not being Trump may be enough. Hillary certainly wasn't, her personality wasn't the type to attract independents. Neither was Kerry or Gore, two statues. McCain didn't have it either nor Dole or G.H.W Bush. If you don't have it, you better hope you get matched up against someone with less charisma than you which happened in 1988, Bush vs. Dukakis, 1968 Nixon vs. Humphrey, 1976 Carter vs. Ford and so on.

Perhaps the most important thing is how a candidate and as president later on can connect with the people. Once again the best at this were the four Larry Sabato pointed out. FDR, JFK, Reagan and Bill Clinton. then in fifth place, I'd put Obama.
Don't forget Teddy R. Bully!

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#326060 - 05/25/20 03:30 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: perotista]
GreatNewsTonight Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/27/20
Posts: 264
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Just got back... guess I touched a nerve.

Iím not that sensitive, so I donít have any comment about any personal attack. But calling Sanders a loser over and over because he didnít sponsor any major legislation didnít look rational to me. Itís just my opinion, and I linked an article to support my view.

It wasnít a personal attack, it was an observation. After reading my link, do you still hold the opinion that Sanders is an empty footnote in history?

Now that's interesting. Footnote in history. Possible. Is Goldwater a footnote in history? He was the one who started the conservative movement by being blown out in the 1964 presidential election. His movement didn't take hold until 1980 with the election of Reagan. But his movement, I'll call it traditional conservatism has morphed into something completely different, a different type/s of conservatism Goldwater wouldn't recognize. Once known as the father of Conservatism, most modern day conservatives call him a libertarian because his brand wasn't neo or religious conservatism. Barry wanted to get those religious nuts out of the Republican Party.

Sanders, footnote, perhaps? That depends on how his ideas catch on with the American public, all of the public and not just a faction within the Democratic Party. He could be looked back on as the father of a new progressive movement. Or relegated to just a footnote when talking about Democratic Primaries. The one who lost to Hillary and then lost to Biden. Some primary losers are remembered and become more than just a footnote. Reagan challenged Ford in 1976, he lost to Ford and Ford lost to Carter. Many historians put the blame for Ford's loss on Reagan's challenge. But Ronnie won the presidency in 1980, so that's what he is remembered for.

Teddy Kennedy is also well documented in 1980 for challenging Carter. Again, historians always list Teddy's challenge of Jimmy as one of the reason Jimmy lost in 1980. But Ted Kennedy's fame is being JFK's and RFK's brother. Much more than his challenge to Carter.

Sanders, a footnote to history is possible, maybe even probable. It all depends whether a young fresh faced progressive picks up his ideas and runs with them and wins. Time will tell.


The father of a new progressive movement? I pity the "new progressive movement" if its father is the ineffective loser known as Bernie Sanders. I guess he is better than AOC (not so hard to be better than that one). If she's the heir, God help us.

Bernie Sanders is not fostering the growth of the progressive movement. He is fostering its shrinkage. His voting percentages shrank as opposed to 2016 - OK, this like I said might be due to the Not-Hillary effect, but even his youth support declined as opposed to 2016, and that's more telling.
_________________________
Please take COVID-19 seriously; don't panic but don't deny it; practice social distancing (stay 6ft from people); wash your hands a lot, don't touch your face, don't gather with too many people, so that you help us contain it.

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#326061 - 05/25/20 03:33 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: GreatNewsTonight]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17425
Originally Posted By: GreatNewsTonight
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Just got back... guess I touched a nerve.

Iím not that sensitive, so I donít have any comment about any personal attack. But calling Sanders a loser over and over because he didnít sponsor any major legislation didnít look rational to me. Itís just my opinion, and I linked an article to support my view.

It wasnít a personal attack, it was an observation. After reading my link, do you still hold the opinion that Sanders is an empty footnote in history?

Now that's interesting. Footnote in history. Possible. Is Goldwater a footnote in history? He was the one who started the conservative movement by being blown out in the 1964 presidential election. His movement didn't take hold until 1980 with the election of Reagan. But his movement, I'll call it traditional conservatism has morphed into something completely different, a different type/s of conservatism Goldwater wouldn't recognize. Once known as the father of Conservatism, most modern day conservatives call him a libertarian because his brand wasn't neo or religious conservatism. Barry wanted to get those religious nuts out of the Republican Party.

Sanders, footnote, perhaps? That depends on how his ideas catch on with the American public, all of the public and not just a faction within the Democratic Party. He could be looked back on as the father of a new progressive movement. Or relegated to just a footnote when talking about Democratic Primaries. The one who lost to Hillary and then lost to Biden. Some primary losers are remembered and become more than just a footnote. Reagan challenged Ford in 1976, he lost to Ford and Ford lost to Carter. Many historians put the blame for Ford's loss on Reagan's challenge. But Ronnie won the presidency in 1980, so that's what he is remembered for.

Teddy Kennedy is also well documented in 1980 for challenging Carter. Again, historians always list Teddy's challenge of Jimmy as one of the reason Jimmy lost in 1980. But Ted Kennedy's fame is being JFK's and RFK's brother. Much more than his challenge to Carter.

Sanders, a footnote to history is possible, maybe even probable. It all depends whether a young fresh faced progressive picks up his ideas and runs with them and wins. Time will tell.


The father of a new progressive movement? I pity the "new progressive movement" if its father is the ineffective loser known as Bernie Sanders. I guess he is better than AOC (not so hard to be better than that one). If she's the heir, God help us.
Hey now, I happen to love AOC. She raw, but she's sharp, and really represents her generation, in my humble opinion. I'm judging that on my sons' views, which are seriously left of mine, and I'm a radical, yanno.
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