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#323023 - 03/18/20 03:42 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
Universal health insurance is now popular in the demicratic party. The party has installed a candidate who is publicly opposed to any measure beyond the ACA plan devised by a republican corporate think tank.

How does polling resolve that contradiction?

I agree with Jeff, propaganda, well applied, will always shift polls even temporarily.

Haven't even touched the 'framing' aspect of polling.


Edited by chunkstyle (03/18/20 03:42 PM)

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#323026 - 03/18/20 05:14 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 827
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Universal health insurance is now popular in the demicratic party. The party has installed a candidate who is publicly opposed to any measure beyond the ACA plan devised by a republican corporate think tank.

How does polling resolve that contradiction?

I agree with Jeff, propaganda, well applied, will always shift polls even temporarily.

Haven't even touched the 'framing' aspect of polling.


It makes no difference who thought it up or even wrote it up. They didn't try to pass it when most Americans were against it and didn't want it. You can even forget all the public opinion polls and just look at the election results for Nov 2010. That is the true opinion poll. 63 seats lost in the House, 8 Senate seats, 7 governorship's lost, 12 state legislatures lost.

It doesn't bother me if you think the ACA was more popular and wanted by the fans of their hometown team winning the Super Bowl. Without the ACA, the Democrats would have still been in full control of congress, both the house and the senate along with the presidency.

I'm not saying the ACA was good or bad, it actually was irrelevant to me. What I'm saying the reason the Democrats took their drubbing in November of 2010 was because they went ahead and passed the ACA which at that time was against the will of the majority of Americans.

It seems no one on this site understands that and comes in with a ton of excuses of how popular or how good or how wanted or who wrote the darn thing and a million other things.

If the people wanted the ACA, they would reelected all those Democrats in November of 2010 that lost. The ACA was the main reason the Democrats lost the House. This is cause and effect. The cause, the ACA, the effect, the huge losses in November 2010.

I'm not here to defend or condemn the ACA, just stating that passing the ACA against the will of the majority of Americans led to the election debacle of 2010 for the Democrats.


Edited by perotista (03/18/20 05:17 PM)
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#323034 - 03/18/20 06:29 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: perotista]
Greger Offline


Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 17271
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Democrats took their drubbing in November of 2010 was because they went ahead and passed the ACA which at that time was against the will of the majority of Americans.


You can argue all you want but there is no denying the truth of this statement.

Quote:
It seems no one on this site understands that and comes in with a ton of excuses of how popular or how good or how wanted or who wrote the darn thing and a million other things.


I understand it. It was Democrats seizing defeat from the jaws of victory. Somebody up there should have had the sense to say...Wait a minute, this thing has gone to shite, it's not popular with anybody and it needs to be shelved before the election.

There was a recession going on and the Obama administration was doing nothing to help the folks in the trenches. Congress could talk of nothing but insurance regulations and how to get more money to the rich. Voters completely lost faith in Democrats. The ACA wasn't the only reason for the 2010 midterm losses.

Nothing has changed since then.
_________________________
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...

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#323042 - 03/18/20 06:53 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista


Americans were ready for Medicare and wanted it. Medicare votes in Congress – Over 60% of the American Public was in favor of Medicare before it was introduced to congress in 1965.


Perotista, my parents received one of these vinyl LP records in the mail back then:



And THAT was the total EXTENT of the paid political hyperbole back then.
In 2009, Obama faced a MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR hype JUGGERNAUT, highlighted in the "Deadly Spin" documentary I linked to, which you have clearly refused to even look at yet.

Imagine a HUNDRED THOUSAND Ronald Reagan clones all sending out mailers, vinyl records, telegrams, going on television, paying for full page ads in all the newspapers every single day for a year, and holding massive town hall meetings for almost two years every single day.

That, using ONLY the technology of that era, is what LBJ would have faced against Medicare back then, and Medicare would have FAILED, not because of the people but because of a massive propaganda juggernaut.

Again, you seem to be pretending that propaganda doesn't produce results. The Party of Trump (formerly the Republican Party back then) learned forty years ago what happens when you don't rise up with a trained organized money campaign to beat back legislation you don't like.

---Americans were ready for Medicare back then because they didn't get drowned out. The strict right wing listened to the Reagan record and voted against Medicare, while everyone else weighed THE FACTS objectively.

Objectivity is IMPOSSIBLE under today's conditions, and that is why healthcare reform is impossible, even the ACA.

_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#323043 - 03/18/20 07:17 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Greger]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 827
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
Democrats took their drubbing in November of 2010 was because they went ahead and passed the ACA which at that time was against the will of the majority of Americans.


You can argue all you want but there is no denying the truth of this statement.

Quote:
It seems no one on this site understands that and comes in with a ton of excuses of how popular or how good or how wanted or who wrote the darn thing and a million other things.


I understand it. It was Democrats seizing defeat from the jaws of victory. Somebody up there should have had the sense to say...Wait a minute, this thing has gone to shite, it's not popular with anybody and it needs to be shelved before the election.

There was a recession going on and the Obama administration was doing nothing to help the folks in the trenches. Congress could talk of nothing but insurance regulations and how to get more money to the rich. Voters completely lost faith in Democrats. The ACA wasn't the only reason for the 2010 midterm losses.

Nothing has changed since then.

Thank You. I wasn't talking good or bad about the ACA. Just that passing it led to huge defeats.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#323047 - 03/19/20 01:10 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 2356
‘That brings me to the economic response. So far, the House has passed a small response bill, and negotiated a second response package with the White House, including a provision for sick leave that won't cover up to 80 percent of American workers. Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi affirmatively defended the loopholes, saying she didn't want to subsidize corporations. Then during a press conference Monday, Trump swung wildly to the left, saying in response to a question on sick leave that, "We want it for everybody."

But bizarrely, during negotiations with White House staff Monday night, Pelosi agreed to weaken the bill even more. The paid leave provision now applies "only to workers caring for a child whose school or day care had been shut," the Wall Street Journal reports. Either Trump did not understand the question he had been asked and was just running his mouth, he has no idea what his staff is doing, or he was brazenly lying — or some combination of all three.

Meanwhile on the question of broader economic stimulus, several Republicans are now outflanking Pelosi to the left. On Monday, Senator Tom Cotton (R-Ark.) rejected the Pelosi bill as insufficient, while Senator Mitt Romney (R-Utah) proposed an immediate payment of $1,000 to every adult.“

Democrats' grotesque coronavirus failure

Tom Cotten is running to the left of Pelosi and the liberal establishment while the Party kneecapped the candidate proposing universal healthcare for every American during a growing pandemic. Propelling the neoliberal corporatist Biden to the forefront who dismissed UHC during the last debate, while the country is in lock down, while lying his ass off because why not? The barking seals will vote blue no matter whathavya. DNC chair Tom Perez insists on states holding primary elections during a state of emergency and risking the lives of his dependable older base just to drag a sun downing Biden across the finish line and get him in the meat locker, out of public view and scrutiny like they did Hillary in 2016.

Like so many weaknesses of our society getting exposed by C-19, another is the feckless, means testing death cult energy of the Democratic liberal political class. It can’t burn quick enough.


Edited by chunkstyle (03/19/20 01:12 AM)

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#323051 - 03/19/20 03:41 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10345
Loc: North San Diego County
Actually, if you go back to pre-ACA a large majority of the voters, Democratic and Republican, were in favor of health insurance reform that would cover pre-existing conditions and contain costs. It was only after Democrats in congress actually did it, that Republicans demonized it. Before that, they mostly endorsed it, to the extent that Romney implemented it in Massachusetts. That program was working well, and the only people screaming about it were the same libertarians who wanted to get rid of Social Security and Medicare.

The solution they arrived at had a huge amount of Republican input and a huge amount of Big Insurance and Big Pharma input as well. Some would say it was a Republican plan.

All the Republican opposition was thinly-veiled racism (and often not so thinly-veiled) to serve their partisan interests. They generated almost all of the opposition with there Right Wing Noise Machine, and that has been verified many times by insiders who participated.

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#323052 - 03/19/20 03:55 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 10345
Loc: North San Diego County
Jeff, Daryl is not really uninsurable. In California there is no gap between Medi-Cal coverage (which is free) and ACA coverage in terms of income limits. Both of these offer excellent coverage. The ACA maximum out-of-pocket is something around $7400 per year. Medi-Cal has no cap because it has zero cost.

ACA plans in LA include some top-notch plans like Blue Cross, etc. UCLA is going to accept them because otherwise nobody could go there. One important issue is how much income Daryl earns? If it's less than the Medi-Cal limit then he gets that free. If it's a little too high, he can get ACA almost for free as well. The ACA lower limit can be reached by paying Daryl for all his work around the house to get to the limit. But he would have to pay for ACA coverage for the year. Then he gets that all back in his income tax refund. This can be a huge advantage for not keeping an 18-26 year old kid on your ACA plan, if he has the right income.

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#323057 - 03/19/20 05:09 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Jeff, Daryl is not really uninsurable. In California there is no gap between Medi-Cal coverage (which is free) and ACA coverage in terms of income limits. Both of these offer excellent coverage. The ACA maximum out-of-pocket is something around $7400 per year. Medi-Cal has no cap because it has zero cost.

ACA plans in LA include some top-notch plans like Blue Cross, etc. UCLA is going to accept them because otherwise nobody could go there. One important issue is how much income Daryl earns? If it's less than the Medi-Cal limit then he gets that free. If it's a little too high, he can get ACA almost for free as well. The ACA lower limit can be reached by paying Daryl for all his work around the house to get to the limit. But he would have to pay for ACA coverage for the year. Then he gets that all back in his income tax refund. This can be a huge advantage for not keeping an 18-26 year old kid on your ACA plan, if he has the right income.


I think you need to understand that we've been going through this ever since he got dropped at UCLA by Oscar a few months back.

The point is, he NEEDS to be at UCLA.
Yes, UCLA SAYS they will accept a Medi-Cal plan but the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, and we're stuck in Hell trying to get answers from know-nothing clerical types who cannot get through all the hoops just yet.

So for now, until the logjam finally breaks, he IS in point of fact uninsurable until such time as we get the proper stuff filled out the proper way based on proper advice. We have been at this almost four times a week for months, back and forth.

Daryl's employability is up in the air because he is on SSI, so he has been doing small gigs here and there, careful not to exceed the limit.

So yes, technically the day will come, who knows when, when we will finally get all this sorted out however with a kid whose issues go from "Okayfine" to "HOLY [censored]ing sh!t!!!" in the blink of an eye, it's a scary interim, all of which could be avoided if the stupid insurance companies would stop playing "exploding cigar" with the policy and just leave him there.

This is the FOURTH time an insurance company has dropped him, for the lame excuse that they do not want to be in the market anymore.

Sick of it, sick of it, sick of it.
_________________________
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com

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#323059 - 03/19/20 12:54 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
perotista Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 827
Latest delegate count

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/democratic_delegate_count.html

Maryland, Kentucky, Georgia, Louisiana, Ohio have cancelled their primaries and rescheduled them in May or June. Wyoming cancelled in person voting, gathering for their caucus. There may be others.

There is the possibility of more cancellations and perhaps if Corona Virus continues to be the threat it is today of not holding anymore primaries. I haven't seen anything official on that, but heard and read rumors. No one knows what will happen or how the Democratic Party would address this. Just guesses and supposition.

Has anyone else heard anything more on primary cancellations and if that happens how the Democratic Party would choose their nominee? I'm probably jumping the gun here, perhaps big time. But we are in uncharted waters.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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