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#310028 - 12/26/18 08:02 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15655
Loc: Florida
Quote:
You yourself, as plenty of others on this board, grew up in a time that was politically much different than it is today. U.S. politics has shifted to the right.


US politics has always leaned right, racist, anti immigrant, anti woman and anti gay. Historically speaking it was practically yesterday when we had a civil war over slavery. It wasn't until 1965 or so that we actually granted full civil rights to black people. And even that only as a legality. People of color are still treated like second class citizens. Gays have only recently been allowed to enter the mainstream and that with considerable trepidation. Women continue to struggle beneath a burgeoning patriarchy.

And yer tryin' to tell me they've moved further right?

Maybe you don't realize just how downtrodden the downtrodden were not too many years ago so you can't see how far we've come.

Quote:
a time that was politically much different than it is today

No, it wasn't. It was Democrats vs Republicans. Labor vs business.
Rich people controlled the parties. A working guy couldn't get a break...
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#310029 - 12/26/18 08:26 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8879
Loc: North San Diego County
I was politically aware from about 1960 on. I lived through all those years and things are certainly much better now, especially if you were a person of color or non-majority sexual orientation. For most of those years people were often killed (by lynch mobs, racists, gay-bashers, or government) just for being non-white or non-straight.

Sure, union-member working-class people were a little better off when the union actually meant something. But union workers were not the bottom rung of society: Far from it. And all those lower rungs were much worse off than now.

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#310031 - 12/26/18 11:37 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
U.S. politics has always been dominated by powerful interest to be sure.
Whats changed is the Democratic party embracing a market oriented philosophy and becoming openly hostile to it's left flank for the last 40 years. Labor unions, the remnants of the socialist labor struggles, are hanging on by their teeth.
Suffragettes, Anti-Imperialists, Socialists, Grange revolts,European Anarchists and Communists, etc... were the left. Driven to ground by the purge of the 50's, the left ain't what it used to be giving license for anyone to define it in it's absence from real politics or the economy. I'm not sure why, but white boomers went hard right dragging both parties with them.
We have some pretty good poverty going again and real wages have stalled out since the 70's with the profits now going almost entirely to the rich. Union membership is at an all time low as organizing is harder and harder. Minorities household is on track to Zero while fascists are openly running and, in some cases, winning political seats.
Nah, we haven't moved right. We got gay marriages (for now, wel'll have to wait and see on them revanchist judges Schumer help get appointed to federal benches).
PIA, what are you saying? I cant tell as your first sentence about unions is contradicted by your second.
Yes, union s were organized at the working class level. That's why they organized! So they would get pay raises and benefits so they could escape being working poor. What am I missing here? Union workers are still better paid than their non-union peers. This has ben getting understood again lately and there has been a upswing labor activity. In case you didn't know it, striking gets the goods!
Workers are better off today because money made concessions to labor to end hostilities. Overtime rules, time off etc... You think JP Morgan came up with that?

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#310032 - 12/27/18 03:50 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15655
Loc: Florida
I could be wrong about this but I think non-union workers became jealous of union workers getting paid more for the same work and started voting against unions...and thus we got "Right To Work" laws.
Politics hasn't necessarily moved right, it has moved to stupid.

Also I think everyone here realizes we have entered into another "Gilded Age" and something is going to have to stop it. This is typically the job of the "left" and things being what they are, it's going to fall on the Democratic Party to actually become the left after a long comfortable run in the middle.
_________________________
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#310034 - 12/27/18 02:34 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
Wage resentments may have played a role Gregor. It is a very real thing that management class types have used to denigrate unions.
Weakening unions has been an avocation of the rich since organized labor reemergence in the 1930's. It's been a multigenerational project for some families, such as the koch's.
Shifting production from areas of high union organization and leftist politics to low unionization, if any at all, and relatively little left wing political thought began in the 50's.
Meat packing moved out of the Midwest and furniture making moved out of New England.
Similar legal efforts were made to curtail and restrict the ability of organizing work places in the south and, as the Koch project is still unfolding, the upper Midwest as well.
The south has made sense for using as a cheap labor pool. After all, it fought a horrendous war using poor laborers that were defending an economic system to keep them poor. Except for the farm revolts and cigar worker strikes I can't think of much labor solidarity in the south. I do recall a more negative attitude towards unions while living there so you may be right on resentments helping pass 'right to work' anti labor organizing laws.
The Democratic Party is incapable of reforming itsrlf and making a left turn. It's only going to happen with pressure from below. You don't get left policies by electing republicans in a Democat wrapper such as Beto. His voting record is what's wrong with the party and voters that can't differentiate between public relations and voting/donation history.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/27/18 02:38 PM)

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#310036 - 12/27/18 06:54 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15655
Loc: Florida
C'mon...Beto's no Republican in sheep's clothes. He's not racist, fascist, or fundamental Christian. Bear in mind that Joe Biden is more or less the front-runner in early polling. Pretty much as centrist as they come and as old as dirt. Bernie, the closest thing we have to a Comrade in the U.S. government, was running a close second.

Beto came in a distant third. But I think you're writing him off a bit too soon. His congressional voting record isn't impressive, I'll agree, but there is more to a man than that. Let's just say that if Trump gets his wall built...President Beto will tear it down. He likes brown people, he grew up with brown people, he speaks fluent Spanish and he represents a majority Latino district on the southern border. That alone puts a wee smile on my face. He'd be a great champion for immigration reform, something that's going to be a major issue in 2020.

Deal is...Beto could win this. You can set yourself against him for no good reason, or you could keep an open mind and see how things play out. He's not a leftist firebrand but he doesn't hate on leftist firebrands and he can see which way the political winds are blowing.
(Which is currently in favor of leftist firebrands)
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#310038 - 12/27/18 09:20 PM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8879
Loc: North San Diego County
I blame Ronald Reagan: He was President of the Screen Actor's Guild union for many years, and then a union-buster when he was President of the US. That was the point that even non-corrupt unions really started declining. Now we are living in an age of stagnant wages but continuing inflation. No wonder working class people in the Midwest are willing to try anything: Compared to 30 years ago, all the wisdom about working at a job and steadily getting raises until you retire with a pension, is no longer true. Instead you work when you can, at steadily crappier jobs for less money. Then you retire when you can't work anymore, and try to get by on Social Security. Eventually, you have to decide if you want cat food or your prescriptions.

It's The Conservative Dream (as opposed to The American Dream). Only it isn't you that is dreaming: It's some rich folks whose ideas of success all depend on lots of other people failing.

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#310050 - 12/28/18 02:03 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1865
Beto could win. It would be a disaster for the Democrats. Another Clinton 2.0 and he's getting backed by the same groups. Third Way and New Democrats. That is not a good sign.
He's voted for way to much GOP legislation. Beyond the norm for someone in a democratic district such as his.
You might have a point that Beto is no Trump republican but it sure looks like he's a never Trumper in a democratic wrapper
He's recieved more fossil fuel money than everyone in congress but Ted Cruz. Awkward...

Sirota's deep dive into Beto was met with the usual attacks from the Clinton crowd and the corporate Democrats. That's also not a good sign. We don't need another democrat that talks from the left but governs from the right. Full article here

I would like to see a leftist elected for once and see if the corporatists can get him/her to move towards the center.


Edited by chunkstyle (12/28/18 02:07 AM)

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#310051 - 12/28/18 03:50 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14434
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

I would like to see a leftist elected for once and see if the corporatists can get him/her to move towards the center.


Get them into the party and pull the trigger. Chances are they will win.

If that is not the game then the thread needs to morph into a realistic discussion about how to make a third party candidate win the White House for the first time in history.
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The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#310052 - 12/28/18 11:14 AM Re: Is it too soon to be talking 2020? [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8879
Loc: North San Diego County
Yeah, that's going to happen...if Jesus comes back and runs Third Party for President.

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