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#313759 - 08/15/19 01:37 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9300
Loc: One of the Mexicos
FYI: definition of a Regressive

A Regressive is any person who declares to be the complete opposite of a Progressive.

Pretty simple, really...
_________________________
An entrepreneur sees problems as the seeds of opportunity.

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#313761 - 08/15/19 01:41 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: logtroll]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15318
Loc: Florida
I think your party has left you behind, Hatrack. Everything about the Republican Party today is geared towards making money for corporations, making the rich richer and making life harder for the poor.

You are the bourgeoisie. You can call it conservatism if you want but every time you guys take over you hand huge scoops of money to the very very wealthy. and funnel more money into the production of tanks and bombs.

Lotta bougies in the Democratic Party too, but we have other threads for that.

Perhaps you feel like this nonsense is sustainable? So what are your goals Senator? What do you want the world to look like in ten years? or a hundred?
Is Trump laying the groundwork for some grand conservative plan to combat global warming and create a thriving conservative global economy?

Apparently you don't like the idea of a social democracy where workers are paid a living wage, have universal healthcare, and subsidized education. What do you envision? All I see is more kids in cages, more shootings and more people dying who can't afford medicine, but hey...you got a conservative solution for all this? let's hear it.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#313764 - 08/15/19 02:39 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41572
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


Conservatives have no core values that can't be sacrificed in the name of political expedience or profit: Southern Strategy, Voodoo Economics, and fear mongering.

Hmm


Ya fergot Trickle Down. wink

Thanks for the reminder. laugh
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#313766 - 08/15/19 03:07 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Greger]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1435
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Greger
I think your party has left you behind, Hatrack. Everything about the Republican Party today is geared towards making money for corporations, making the rich richer and making life harder for the poor.

If corporations don't make money they go out of business. The "rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is bullshit! Wealth fluctuates. When even a corporation that was once the largest in the world, GM, can go bankrupt shows that wealth fluctuates. It should not have been bailed out.

Lotta bougies in the Democratic Party too, but we have other threads for that.
Quote:
You are the bourgeoisie. You can call it conservatism if you want but every time you guys take over you hand huge scoops of money to the very very wealthy. and funnel more money into the production of tanks and bombs.

No, I am not a member of bourgeoisie. No company of any size should get a subsidy from our government. If you read our Constitution Greger you will see that spending money on tanks and bombs is one of the things it is supposed to do.

Quote:
Perhaps you feel like this nonsense is sustainable? So what are your goals Senator? What do you want the world to look like in ten years? or a hundred?
Is Trump laying the groundwork for some grand conservative plan to combat global warming and create a thriving conservative global economy?{/quote]
What I want the world to like is in ten years is not something I worry about. What it will look like in 100 years I have no control over. There is nothing man can do to combat climate change. The climate has changed before man existed and it will continue to change.

[quote]Apparently you don't like the idea of a social democracy where workers are paid a living wage, have universal healthcare, and subsidized education. What do you envision? All I see is more kids in cages, more shootings and more people dying who can't afford medicine, but hey...you got a conservative solution for all this? let's hear it.

The wage anyone gets can be a livable wage. The reason people don't have a livable wage is because the have developed the habit of living beyond their means. At my last job I was paid $12.50 an hour and I lived quite comfortable. Not only was I able to live quite comfortably but I was able to live without a paycheck for almost a year. To live comfortable it is not how much you make it is how you spend what you make. I was able to that because I did not go into debt, instead I saved my money by living within my means. To have universal healthcare is to have free healthcare for all. To do that would require those in the healthcare industry to work for free. Working for free is definitely not a living wage. Do I have a conservative solution for the problems you claim to exist? Yes, it is to government out of our lives as much as is possible! What you want to see happen requires an ever larger and more intrusive government. Governments do not and cannot generate wealth. What governments do is confiscate wealth. Reduce the size of our government and wealth will be created. THe more wealth that is created the more money there will be available to reduce those problems. Will the problems you listed be solved? No, and even with the "social democracy" you want they will continue to exist. The idea that the problems of the world can be eliminated is utopian thinking. Remember that the word utopia is Latin for nowhere.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#313770 - 08/15/19 03:27 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16986
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Greger
Class hierarchy is truly the one thing conservatives intend on conserving. Conservatives of both parties.

Bougies and Proles...surely you've heard of them NWP? Even in the throes of end game capitalism the class hierarchy MUST be preserved, and con-served..
Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't following the thought process.

THAT IS BULLSHIT!
As a conservative I have NEVER been concerned or even noticed what class a person is supposedly a member of. Separating people into a class is a Marxist idea. An idea that the left of today has now broaden into identity politics. The greatness of capitalism is that a whatever person's financial situation is that it can go up or down. There is no class hierarchy in conservatism. In the 50 plus years that I have been active in conservatism I have NEVER seen anyone put in a class!
Thanks for demonstrating, my friend, all that I said in my last post to you. When I was an active conservative I thought that it meant approaching issues with skepticism, testing ideas, and going forward incrementally with forethought. Those that claim the mantle of conservatism today are none of that (as you have essentially conceded). That you could not name a single person who embodies conservatism modernly seems to prove my point. I very much appreciate the urgent desire to cling to principles and rationality, but it has slipped away from the GOP.

But then I looked back into history and realized that what I thought was conservatism had never truly existed in America. It was a nice fantasy I held, but it was never true. Those that claimed the mantle were ever mean-spirited, narrow-minded, and impractical. The giants of early "American conservatism" (e.g.,Jefferson, Madison) abandoned those so-called principles as soon as they took power, because they learned quickly that they were great in theory, but had no application in the real world. The list of such failures is as long as the list of Presidents.

"Color blindness" and "classless" are just euphemisms for their opposites, elitism and keeping the lower classes and inferior races down and maintaining power. By ignoring the realities of racism and economic exploitation, we can pretend we're pursuing meritocracy, but it's a fraud. At every step of the progress of the Nation it had been conservatives who resisted, demurred and obstructed. That is objective and irrefutable fact. Again, name one instance where this has not been true.

I am very sympathetic to your desire for this not to be true, my friend. I truly am. But it is. (By the way, I've read most of the tomes you listed, but the critique I would provide would be neither on topic nor within the patience of the board. I'm not a novice to the subject.)

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#313771 - 08/15/19 03:30 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
chunkstyle Offline
member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 1622
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
"At my last job I was paid $12.50 an hour and I lived quite comfortable. Not only was I able to live quite comfortably but I was able to live without a paycheck for almost a year."


You live alone with no other means of support? Mortgage, rent, car, fuel, groceries, utilities etc?
You should write a how to book on your experience. You would make a fortune off everyone eager to hear 'Conservative (not a Nazi!!!) Hatracks path to economic freedom for the fiscally constrained'.

Millions would love to know your secrets and a few more would probably look under the hood to see your not selling wolf tickets.

Sorry but your being John Stossel grade B.S. I admire your grift though.


Edited by Jeffery J. Haas (08/15/19 03:48 AM)
Edit Reason: quotations

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#313775 - 08/15/19 03:59 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14174
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

The wage anyone gets can be a livable wage. The reason people don't have a livable wage is because the have developed the habit of living beyond their means.


--Sigh.

Daryl's health insurance: $450 a month, scheduled to hit $650 next year or close to it.
Bri's health insurance: $200 a month, she is relatively healthy, Daryl is definitely NOT.

Car payment: $850 a month. This is NOT "living beyond our means", it is the ONLY way to carry my wife without lifting her manually in and out of an ordinary car and being forced to use a manual wheelchair, which the docs said is no longer possible.
The old van was beyond repair except for the engine and transmission, which are still quite serviceable but as a reliable vehicle it was finished. The new van, which is fully handicap accessible, cost 80 thousand bucks, forty thousand of which the VA covered, but we're still on the hook for the financing, which works out to 850 a month.

Mortgage: $2600 a month.
Add food, clothing and utilities and that's it.
We don't party, we don't go to expensive dinners, we don't buy stuff online beyond normal necessities, and we don't gamble in Vegas.

Are we "living beyond our means?"

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

At my last job I was paid $12.50 an hour and I lived quite comfortable. Not only was I able to live quite comfortably but I was able to live without a paycheck for almost a year. To live comfortable it is not how much you make it is how you spend what you make. I was able to that because I did not go into debt, instead I saved my money by living within my means.


When was that last job if I may ask?

Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

To have universal healthcare is to have free healthcare for all. To do that would require those in the healthcare industry to work for free. Working for free is definitely not a living wage. Do I have a conservative solution for the problems you claim to exist? Yes, it is to government out of our lives as much as is possible! What you want to see happen requires an ever larger and more intrusive government. Governments do not and cannot generate wealth. What governments do is confiscate wealth. Reduce the size of our government and wealth will be created. THe more wealth that is created the more money there will be available to reduce those problems. Will the problems you listed be solved? No, and even with the "social democracy" you want they will continue to exist. The idea that the problems of the world can be eliminated is utopian thinking. Remember that the word utopia is Latin for nowhere.


Fine, no universal health care.
Do you mind chipping in for funeral and burial for my son?
We won't be able to afford his medical bills anymore.

Here's the most recent one:



By the way, saying UHC requires medical to work for free is NONSENSE.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#313786 - 08/15/19 04:36 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16986
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
To conserve something is to want to preserve and protect it. American Conservatives want to return our government to doing only what is listed in Article I Section 8 of our Constitution. Anything that is not expressly authorized by it is to be either eliminated or done by the various state or local governments.
Going back to your original post, I am going to posit something that is likely to really, really tick you off: Liberals are the new conservatives. Now, let me explain:

Liberals/progressives want to preserve and protect - the environment, the economy, the civil order, the American dream. "Returning" the government to something it has never been, however, is not "conservative." That, rather, is regressive or reactionary.

Now, to soothe your psyche some, I want to emphasize something we have in common - we want to honor American values, rights, and liberties. American values include fairness, justice, equal opportunity, meritocracy. Rights include expression, religion, press, assembly, association, privacy, keeping and bearing arms... and liberties to make family decisions within the family, freedom from want, from discrimination, from the vicissitudes of life.

As a Liberal I want State governments to have the opportunity to experiment, to innovate, and to deviate from what other States are doing - so long as they don't interfere with those previously stated values. I believe in a government that is big enough to do its job, but not so much that it interferes with the life, liberty, and happiness stuff. Mostly what we disagree on is what those things are, and what is interference.

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#313788 - 08/15/19 04:47 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1435
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
[quote=Greger]Class hierarchy is truly the one thing conservatives intend on conserving. Conservatives of both parties.

Bougies and Proles...surely you've heard of them NWP? Even in the throes of end game capitalism the class hierarchy MUST be preserved, and con-served..
Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't following the thought process.

THAT IS BULLSHIT!
As a conservative I have NEVER been concerned or even noticed what class a person is supposedly a member of. Separating people into a class is a Marxist idea. An idea that the left of today has now broaden into identity politics. The greatness of capitalism is that a whatever person's financial situation is that it can go up or down. There is no class hierarchy in conservatism. In the 50 plus years that I have been active in conservatism I have NEVER seen anyone put in a class!

Quote:
Thanks for demonstrating, my friend, all that I said in my last post to you. When I was an active conservative I thought that it meant approaching issues with skepticism, testing ideas, and going forward incrementally with forethought. Those that claim the mantle of conservatism today are none of that (as you have essentially conceded). That you could not name a single person who embodies conservatism modernly seems to prove my point. I very much appreciate the urgent desire to cling to principles and rationality, but it has slipped away from the GOP.

I did not claim that there are none who claim the mantle of Conservatism. There are millions of us. Your request was to name one. Since I could not think of anyone who is instantly recognizable I refrained from naming anyone. Nor did I say that the GOP is or ever was a conservative organization. It is a political organization that exists for the sole purpose of winning elections.
Quote:
But then I looked back into history and realized that what I thought was conservatism had never truly existed in America. It was a nice fantasy I held, but it was never true. Those that claimed the mantle were ever mean-spirited, narrow-minded, and impractical. The giants of early "American conservatism" (e.g.,Jefferson, Madison) abandoned those so-called principles as soon as they took power, because they learned quickly that they were great in theory, but had no application in the real world. The list of such failures is as long as the list of Presidents.

In other words when you looked at our Founding Fathers they did not live up to your expectation of living by the ideals they promoted. Guess what? Nobody can or ever will be able to do that. Our Founding Fathers had to deal with life on life's terms so they had to do the best that could. Because they are human beings, not gods, they fell short of living up the ideals they professed. But then it is easy to judge and condemn them for not doing what you thought they should. So stick your condescending arrogant condemnation of them where the sun doesn't shine!
Quote:
"Color blindness" and "classless" are just euphemisms for their opposites, elitism and keeping the lower classes and inferior races down and maintaining power. By ignoring the realities of racism and economic exploitation, we can pretend we're pursuing meritocracy, but it's a fraud. At every step of the progress of the Nation it had been conservatives who resisted, demurred and obstructed. That is objective and irrefutable fact. Again, name one instance where this has not been true.

You are the elitist not the people you are criticizing. Again the people you are judging had to live life on it's terms not in the idealistic way that you wanted them to. While it is true that "conservatives" blocked some of the changes that should have been that you lump all conservatives into one group is bullshit! Yesterday's liberal is tomorrow's conservative. That is human nature. So your fact is not as objective and irrefutable as you think it is.

Quote:
I am very sympathetic to your desire for this not to be true, my friend. I truly am. But it is. (By the way, I've read most of the tomes you listed, but the critique I would provide would be neither on topic nor within the patience of the board. I'm not a novice to the subject.)

No, what you say is not true. It your opinion not facts. That you cannot accept the fact that no one can or ever will live up to the ideals they profess is the basis for your condemnation of our Founding Fathers and your imagined superiority. When you get rid of your insufferable ego then you might make comments that are not condescending and arrogant. But were that to happen you would again be an American Conservative.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#313792 - 08/15/19 05:12 AM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16986
Friend, you have skipped right over that line by personalizing everything. I am disagreeing with your claims and statements, not calling you names. "condescending arrogant condemnation" indeed. Did you not understand or believe anything I wrote?

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