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#315066 - 09/08/19 01:16 AM Re: And we're off and running! [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15544
Loc: Florida
Uh...I think you're crazy to suggest that Hillary lost because Democratic women didn't vote for her. Because she's a woman.

It's a lot more likely that their husbands who are marginally democrats would be caught up in Trump's snare.

But I'm just sayin'...I think that's nuts. There are a lot or reasons she lost that race but that aint one of 'em.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#315069 - 09/08/19 01:57 AM Re: And we're off and running! [Re: pondering_it_all]
perotista Online   content
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 134
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I think they will elect female Senators, Representatives, and even Governors. President is a whole quantum leap different. Hillary was 1000 times more qualified that Trump, yet a lot of White women did not vote for her. If it was about their own best interests, they would have.

Instead they voted for their own worst enemy. I think a significant percentage of that vote would have gone the other way if the Democratic candidate had been male.
There's many reasons Hillary lost. One of the biggest is independents really, really disliked her. 27% of independents had a favorable view of her vs. 70% who had an unfavorable opinion of her. Trump wasn't loved by independents either, but at 40% favorable, 57% unfavorable, that was enough for him to win the independent vote and thus the White House. Questions 10 and 11.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/l37rosbwjp/econTabReport_lv.pdf

What's interesting is that more women had an unfavorable view of Hillary, 52% than a favorable view of her 47%. Hillary just wasn't liked much. 38% of all Americans had a positive view of her, 56% a negative one. Trump was worst among all Americans, 36% positive, 60% negative. But it was independents that decided 2016. Independent men voted for Trump 50-38 with 12% voting third party against both major party candidates. Independent women went to Hillary 47-42 with 11% voting third party against both.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

I'll add this, in my opinion almost any other democrat, alive or dead would have trounced Trump. The Democrats choose about the only candidate that stood a chance of losing to him. Such is life and elections.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315073 - 09/08/19 04:44 AM Re: And we're off and running! [Re: perotista]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14349
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I think they will elect female Senators, Representatives, and even Governors. President is a whole quantum leap different. Hillary was 1000 times more qualified that Trump, yet a lot of White women did not vote for her. If it was about their own best interests, they would have.

Instead they voted for their own worst enemy. I think a significant percentage of that vote would have gone the other way if the Democratic candidate had been male.
There's many reasons Hillary lost. One of the biggest is independents really, really disliked her. 27% of independents had a favorable view of her vs. 70% who had an unfavorable opinion of her. Trump wasn't loved by independents either, but at 40% favorable, 57% unfavorable, that was enough for him to win the independent vote and thus the White House. Questions 10 and 11.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/l37rosbwjp/econTabReport_lv.pdf

What's interesting is that more women had an unfavorable view of Hillary, 52% than a favorable view of her 47%. Hillary just wasn't liked much. 38% of all Americans had a positive view of her, 56% a negative one. Trump was worst among all Americans, 36% positive, 60% negative. But it was independents that decided 2016. Independent men voted for Trump 50-38 with 12% voting third party against both major party candidates. Independent women went to Hillary 47-42 with 11% voting third party against both.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

I'll add this, in my opinion almost any other democrat, alive or dead would have trounced Trump. The Democrats choose about the only candidate that stood a chance of losing to him. Such is life and elections.


Agreed, Hillary turned people off...TWICE!! ROTFMOL (2008-2016)

Policy wonk? CHECK
Capable? CHECK
Integrity? CHECK - debatable but miles above Trump

Trouble is, she's arrogant. I don't care if she feels entitled, you have to drop the mask and meet the people, not stand around waiting for your coronation.
And when the Feds tell you that you have to upgrade your ancient Blackberry, the thing you DO NOT DO is thumb your nose and take your server private just so you aren't inconvenienced having to learn new tech.

People just flat out disliked her.
I liked her okay but she was not my first choice. Bernie was.
Over the months I watched and began to dislike her more, and get this:
Her contribution to S-CHIP is why my son is still alive today.
So, I can't HATE her!
I STILL did not WANT to vote for her - even though I did under protest.

A lot of people just stayed home, voted oppo out of spite, wrote in...too many did just that, mostly the former.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#315078 - 09/08/19 12:09 PM Re: And we're off and running! [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
perotista Online   content
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 134
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: perotista
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I think they will elect female Senators, Representatives, and even Governors. President is a whole quantum leap different. Hillary was 1000 times more qualified that Trump, yet a lot of White women did not vote for her. If it was about their own best interests, they would have.

Instead they voted for their own worst enemy. I think a significant percentage of that vote would have gone the other way if the Democratic candidate had been male.
There's many reasons Hillary lost. One of the biggest is independents really, really disliked her. 27% of independents had a favorable view of her vs. 70% who had an unfavorable opinion of her. Trump wasn't loved by independents either, but at 40% favorable, 57% unfavorable, that was enough for him to win the independent vote and thus the White House. Questions 10 and 11.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/l37rosbwjp/econTabReport_lv.pdf

What's interesting is that more women had an unfavorable view of Hillary, 52% than a favorable view of her 47%. Hillary just wasn't liked much. 38% of all Americans had a positive view of her, 56% a negative one. Trump was worst among all Americans, 36% positive, 60% negative. But it was independents that decided 2016. Independent men voted for Trump 50-38 with 12% voting third party against both major party candidates. Independent women went to Hillary 47-42 with 11% voting third party against both.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

I'll add this, in my opinion almost any other democrat, alive or dead would have trounced Trump. The Democrats choose about the only candidate that stood a chance of losing to him. Such is life and elections.


Agreed, Hillary turned people off...TWICE!! ROTFMOL (2008-2016)

Policy wonk? CHECK
Capable? CHECK
Integrity? CHECK - debatable but miles above Trump

Trouble is, she's arrogant. I don't care if she feels entitled, you have to drop the mask and meet the people, not stand around waiting for your coronation.
And when the Feds tell you that you have to upgrade your ancient Blackberry, the thing you DO NOT DO is thumb your nose and take your server private just so you aren't inconvenienced having to learn new tech.

People just flat out disliked her.
I liked her okay but she was not my first choice. Bernie was.
Over the months I watched and began to dislike her more, and get this:
Her contribution to S-CHIP is why my son is still alive today.
So, I can't HATE her!
I STILL did not WANT to vote for her - even though I did under protest.

A lot of people just stayed home, voted oppo out of spite, wrote in...too many did just that, mostly the former.
I was one of 9 million folks who voted against both Hillary and Trump. My disdain for both was sky high. Yeah, Hillary came across as elitist, aloof and had the personality of a wet mop. Trump with his brash in your face, obnoxious, uncouth persona was more fit for a wrestler in the WWE than the presidency.

One huge difference was that Trump energized his supporters, filled them with enthusiasm to where they were willing to go to the four corners of the earth for him. Hillary had more supporters, perhaps a lot more. But she was ho hum and failed to energize them. That failure lead to many just staying home. She either couldn't or didn't inspire Democrats to go to the polling place for her.

2020 if anything like 2018, Trump is providing that inspiration. I doubt many Democrats will stay home taking the election for granted.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315081 - 09/08/19 03:03 PM Re: And we're off and running! [Re: perotista]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
Originally Posted By: perotista
2020 if anything like 2018, Trump is providing that inspiration. I doubt many Democrats will stay home taking the election for granted.
That is my hope. My fervor for third party candidates has evaporated under the pall of the last 3 years. Unlike many, I believe the Democratic field is full of genuine possibilities. None are perfect, the process certainly isn't, but "blue, no matter who" is the only logical choice this election. The risk to the country and the planet is too great otherwise.

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#315086 - 09/08/19 05:06 PM Re: And we're off and running! [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Online   content
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 134
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: perotista
2020 if anything like 2018, Trump is providing that inspiration. I doubt many Democrats will stay home taking the election for granted.
That is my hope. My fervor for third party candidates has evaporated under the pall of the last 3 years. Unlike many, I believe the Democratic field is full of genuine possibilities. None are perfect, the process certainly isn't, but "blue, no matter who" is the only logical choice this election. The risk to the country and the planet is too great otherwise.


My vote depends on whom the Democrats nominate. I know I won't be voting for Trump. Now rather my vote goes to the Democratic or to a third party candidate is solely based on who the Democratic nominee is. There's three or four I would hop on their bandwagon and support all the way, another two or three that would drive me to vote third party again. Against both Trump and whomever.

I think the ball is in the Democrat's court. Who they hand that ball to will probably determine whether they win in a landslide or if another 2016 is possible. I'm not a Democrat, so it's their decision. The key voting group is independents. Independents really, really disliked Hillary. They disliked Trump also, but not as much.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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#315087 - 09/08/19 05:19 PM Re: And we're off and running! [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17116
Except, of course, that any vote not for the Democrat is a vote for Trump. That's what happened in 2016.

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#315089 - 09/08/19 05:45 PM Re: And we're off and running! [Re: perotista]
Greger Online   content

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15544
Loc: Florida
Quote:
2020 if anything like 2018, Trump is providing that inspiration. I doubt many Democrats will stay home taking the election for granted.


We're in complete agreement in regards to the past and future.

Except that I actually liked Hillary and think the world would be in a much safer place with her at the helm.

But yes. 2020 is set to be a bloodbath. It's a chance for progressives in America to take the helm and spin the wheel hard a-port.

But instead they're gonna nominate Biden. And the American Left will be dead in the water.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde

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#315090 - 09/08/19 06:19 PM Re: And we're off and running! [Re: NW Ponderer]
perotista Online   content
stranger

Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 134
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Except, of course, that any vote not for the Democrat is a vote for Trump. That's what happened in 2016.


Actually no. The third party vote helped Hillary. According to CNN exit polling when third party voters were asked whom they would have voted for in a strictly two candidate race, no third party candidates. 19% answered Trump, 16% Clinton. 65% responded they wouldn't have voted.

In other words with no third party candidates considering 9 million people voted third party, Trump would have added 1.7 million more votes than he received, Hillary an additional 1.4 million. If no third party candidates, 5.9 million who those who voted wouldn't have. Such was the disdain for both major party candidates that officially registering their vote against both Trump and Clinton drove them to the polls.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

Hillary was actually the beneficiary of the third party vote. Third party voting usually hurts the Republican more than the Democrat.

Having voted third party I've been told many times by Clinton supporters my vote for a third party candidate was a vote for Trump. I also have been told by Trump supporters my vote a third party candidate as in reality a vote for Clinton. It was against both. Neither Trump nor Clinton seen their vote tally go up by one once my vote was counted. It was a neither vote which helped neither major party candidate.

Hence, it is vital the Democrats come up with a candidate attrictive to independents. In 2016 3% of Democrats voted third party, 4% of Republicans voted third party, 12% of independents voted third party. Time to learn from the mistakes of 2016 when it comes to nominating a candidate. Candidates matter.
_________________________
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

Top
#315107 - 09/08/19 11:15 PM Re: And we're off and running! [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8797
Loc: North San Diego County
That analysis ignores who the Third Party candidate is: A popular leftist Third Party candidate would indeed take votes from the Democrat and help elect the Republican. Likewise, a popular right wing candidate would take votes from the Republican and help elect the Democrat. In general, a Third Party candidate can only help elect the mainstream candidate the least like them. This is why people say Third Party runs can only hurt their cause.

It would be completely different if we had a parliamentary form of government, where a Third Party could form a coalition with the mainstream Party most like them, But we don't.

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