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#313423 - 08/11/19 05:37 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1599
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Anything that is not expressly authorized by it is to be either eliminated or done by the various state or local governments.
  • Women's right to vote
  • Minorites right to vote
  • Gay Marriage
  • Due process for non-whites
  • Women's right to control their bodies
  • The right to own land if non-white male
Thanks for the reminder of why Conservatism is a racist and bigoted ideology, Senator Hatrack. smile

This comment is another example of judging our Constitution by today's standards. When it was written the right to vote, even when it was limited to white males, was an extremely radical idea! That extending the right to vote to women and minorities was unfortunately something that took time to do. The state of Wyoming gave women the right to vote before our federal government did. That is why I said there are somethings the states should do. The Fifth Amendment is color blind. Sadly the enforcement of it was not. Again that is something that took time to accomplish. Ever since the days when we were colonies of England people of color could and did own land. Gay marriage is a long overdue idea but it is not banned by our Constitution. It isn't because marriage, gay or straight, is not mentioned in our Constitution. The idea of women controlling their bodies is also a recent one, which it is why it is not mention in our Constitution either.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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#313425 - 08/11/19 05:42 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Our Founding Fathers acquiesced to the existence of slavery with great reluctance.


ROTFMOL

I'm sure the Founding Father just hated owning salves - but were merely keeping up with the Jones'. smile
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#313426 - 08/11/19 05:46 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41835
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Anything that is not expressly authorized by it is to be either eliminated or done by the various state or local governments.
  • Women's right to vote
  • Minorites right to vote
  • Gay Marriage
  • Due process for non-whites
  • Women's right to control their bodies
  • The right to own land if non-white male
Thanks for the reminder of why Conservatism is a racist and bigoted ideology, Senator Hatrack. smile

This comment is another example of judging our Constitution by today's standards. When it was written the right to vote, even when it was limited to white males, was an extremely radical idea!

What would have been truly radical is that everybody had freedom and were equal in the spirit of The Age of Enlightenment - but that didn't happen - because those pesky "keep the status quo" aka "conserve and preserve" ideals got into the way. coffee
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#313427 - 08/11/19 06:02 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15479
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: rporter314
The sole intent of all documents leading to the US Constitution was not to limit government by size but to prevent government from enslaving its citizenry.


And yet here we find ourselves enslaved....Each university graduate in debt up to their asses to the US government. Wages have been held artificially low for years to benefit the plantation owners...

16 tons and what do I get...
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#313429 - 08/11/19 06:28 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Greger]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1599
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Greger
That there are arguments over the interpretation of the words in the constitution is proof enough that there is plenty of room for flexibility. When actual changes are demanded by a wide majority of voters then it is easily amended. The FFs never meant for it to be like the Ten Comandmants but for it to be a living and breathing document.

If our Constitution were meant to be a living breathing document our Founding Fathers would not have taken the time and effort to write it.
"On every question of construction [of the Constitution] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or intended against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." Thomas Jefferson
That is not a description of a living breathing constitution.
Originally Posted By: Greger
I'm what you would call a socialist. There's not a single item in my agenda that would conflict with the Constitution. It's a good document and it's proven to work. Our interpretations probably diverge at... "lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common defense and general Welfare of the United States."

There they do diverge. The general Welfare clause to be interpreted as it's author, James Madison, intended it to be and this is what Madison had to say about it.
"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America."
"Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."
Quote:
You cannot tell me that the FFs ever envisioned worldwide military domination to be the main goal of our government, even during peacetime, to the detriment of the health, education, and employment of the general population.

**EDIT***...or maybe you can but that we argue at all simply illustrates my argument that the words are somewhat ambiguous sometimes and subject to interpretation.

That the United States is the dominant military force in the world is not something our Founding Fathers wanted. That it has happened is due to circumstances beyond the control of our government. However, because our military is as large as it is it has quite often been used to benefit the rest of the world. Our military was helping people around the world long before it became the largest one in the world.
https://www.history.navy.mil/research/li...-disasters.html
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#313430 - 08/11/19 06:36 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1599
Loc: MN
pdx rick did you run before you could walk? No, you did not. Just as you did not run before you could walk our government could not run, implement the radical ideas of freedom as widely as they are now, before it could walk. So for you to criticize our government's supposed failure to implement the radical ideas of freedom is at best 20/20 hindsight. At worst it is the ridiculous idea that someone could run before they could walk.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#313432 - 08/11/19 06:42 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1599
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Our Founding Fathers acquiesced to the existence of slavery with great reluctance.


ROTFMOL

I'm sure the Founding Father just hated owning salves - but were merely keeping up with the Jones'. smile

Yes, they did.
"As much as I value an union of all the states, I would not admit the southern states into the union, unless they agreed to the discontinuance of this disgraceful trade, because it would bring weakness and not strength to the union."
"The augmentation of slaves weakens the states; and such a trade is diabolical in itself, and disgraceful to mankind."
George Mason, the "Father of our Bill of Rights."
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#313434 - 08/11/19 06:48 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Greger]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1599
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Greger
Originally Posted By: rporter314
The sole intent of all documents leading to the US Constitution was not to limit government by size but to prevent government from enslaving its citizenry.


And yet here we find ourselves enslaved....Each university graduate in debt up to their asses to the US government. Wages have been held artificially low for years to benefit the plantation owners...

16 tons and what do I get...

Those who have student loan debts entered into the contract for them of their own free will. It is far better to have wages determined by the free market where people can change and improve their conditions at will than to have wages determined by a socialist government.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
#313436 - 08/11/19 06:55 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: Senator Hatrack]
BC Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 7502
Loc: ...Grand Ledge...
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The Constitutional Convention of 1787 was held because the Articles of Confederation didn't work. Our Constitution is a compilation of many documents to limit government starting with the Magna Carta.
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The Constitutional Convention of 1787 was held because the Articles of Confederation didn't work. Our Constitution is a compilation of many documents to limit government starting with the Magna Carta.

...and amended many times because it was not perfect for then or any time, never will be perfect and will always need amending to stand the tests of time and the tests modern men, times and events toss in its path. It has been and is meant to be a living document, subject to interpretation and change.
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#313437 - 08/11/19 07:05 PM Re: This is American Conservatism [Re: BC]
Senator Hatrack Online   happy
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1599
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: BC
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The Constitutional Convention of 1787 was held because the Articles of Confederation didn't work. Our Constitution is a compilation of many documents to limit government starting with the Magna Carta.
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
The Constitutional Convention of 1787 was held because the Articles of Confederation didn't work. Our Constitution is a compilation of many documents to limit government starting with the Magna Carta.

...and amended many times because it was not perfect for then or any time, never will be perfect and will always need amending to stand the tests of time and the tests modern men, times and events toss in its path. It has been and is meant to be a living document, subject to interpretation and change.

Nothing created by men is perfect. What our Founding Fathers got right when they wrote our Constitution was its limitation on the powers of our government. It lives because it can change but the authors of it knew that human nature and the lust for power would never change. That is why they wrote it, to put limits on man's lust for power.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

Top
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