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#313993 - 08/19/19 05:13 PM Re: Good bye? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 15343
Loc: Florida

I'm just gonna leave this here...

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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#314187 - 08/25/19 10:32 PM Re: Good bye? [Re: pdx rick]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1467
Loc: MN
The general Welfare clause that regulates government spending is NOT found in the preamble to our Constitution! If you don't know where the general Welfare clause is in our Constitution your comments about it are those of someone who does not know it.

Then since Hamilton was only at the Constitutional Convention for about half of it, that he only spoke at it once, and was not a voting member of it renders that Supreme Court decision of questionable Constitutional validity. Try reading James Madison's Notes om the Constitutional Convention.

It's too bad you don't have any curiosity about the creation of our Constitution pdx rick.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314190 - 08/25/19 10:56 PM Re: Good bye? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1467
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Greger
The simplest route to universal healthcare is expanding and changing our Medicare and Medicaid programs.

Yes, let's extend Medicare to everyone. What a great idea!
Originally Posted By: Greger
Senator, these are workable solutions, within constitutional parameters, and can be funded without difficulty.

http://www.usadebtclock.com/
Medicare is currently a $79,000,000,000,000.00+ unfunded liability. Our current on the books debt is $22,000,000,000,000+. Our entire country the land, and the wealth of everyone in it is $22,000,000,000,000. So if we were to sell the entire USA of and tax everyone in it at a rate of 100% we could only pay off our current debt. There would be absolutely nothing left to pay the unfunded liability of Medicare. So NO extending Medicare to everyone is NOT possible!

Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Conservatism is a breeding ground of anti-intellectualism, it’s a sin to be smart.

Do you ever do any research pdx rick? This conservative does and my research has repeatedly shown you to be wrong. The facts I have just posted to refute Greger's comments show that what he claims is not and cannot happen.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314191 - 08/25/19 11:05 PM Re: Good bye? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1467
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Two notes here that I think are very important. First, while that quote of James Madison is correct, it was a) not the last word on the subject (in fact, he lost the argument to Hamilton, who "argued for a broad interpretation which viewed spending as an enumerated power Congress could exercise independently to benefit the general welfare.

Madison wrote the general Welfare clause, therefore it is his comments on it should be how it is interpreted. That the Butler decision chose to use Hamilton's opinion of it and not what Madison intended it to be makes the decision of questionable Constitutional validity. The Butler decision was made during the New Deal which when FDR ignored our Constitution.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314193 - 08/25/19 11:29 PM Re: Good bye? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9318
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
http://www.usadebtclock.com/
Medicare is currently a $79,000,000,000,000.00+ unfunded liability. Our current on the books debt is $22,000,000,000,000+. Our entire country the land, and the wealth of everyone in it is $22,000,000,000,000. So if we were to sell the entire USA of and tax everyone in it at a rate of 100% we could only pay off our current debt. There would be absolutely nothing left to pay the unfunded liability of Medicare.

Okay... so why are Republicans so excited to cut taxes, when it is clear that the revenues are already egregiously short?

And why is the amount of current private healthcare expenditures that would be displaced by a tax funded healthcare system always externalized?

We all agree that the cost of healthcare is too high. How it's paid for is not really the question, it's how can it cost less and deliver an optimal result that counts.

Nobody seems to be inclined to honesty about the math in these things...
_________________________
An entrepreneur sees problems as the seeds of opportunity.

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#314194 - 08/25/19 11:29 PM Re: Good bye? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14197
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack

http://www.usadebtclock.com/
Medicare is currently a $79,000,000,000,000.00+ unfunded liability. Our current on the books debt is $22,000,000,000,000+. Our entire country the land, and the wealth of everyone in it is $22,000,000,000,000. So if we were to sell the entire USA of and tax everyone in it at a rate of 100% we could only pay off our current debt. There would be absolutely nothing left to pay the unfunded liability of Medicare. So NO extending Medicare to everyone is NOT possible!


You actually believe in unfunded liabilities?
Oh man, that's hilarious.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#314198 - 08/25/19 11:38 PM Re: Good bye? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Senator Hatrack Offline
member

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 1467
Loc: MN
Since the unfunded liabilities do, unfortunately, exist I reluctantly believe in them. I would prefer to hide my head in the sand, and not believe in them, but they are real, despite any attempts at levity about them.
_________________________
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary

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#314208 - 08/26/19 12:03 AM Re: Good bye? [Re: Senator Hatrack]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14197
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Senator Hatrack
Since the unfunded liabilities do, unfortunately, exist I reluctantly believe in them. I would prefer to hide my head in the sand, and not believe in them, but they are real, despite any attempts at levity about them.


Oh I DO BELIEVE that they are tallied up somewhere in some ledger.
I do not however believe that they are the ticking time bomb they're cast as because the bigger time bomb is what we're doing now in the name of unfunded liabilities, which is basically actions which threaten to turn us third world in the next decade or even sooner.

Banking excesses, irresponsible lending practices, "malinvestment", credit-induced asset bubbles, the impact of wealth inequality and low interest rates on the poor and elderly, and even the overreach of government are all valid concerns.

The Unfunded Liabilities theory, on the other hand, carries the stench of End Times biblical prophecy and anti-government libertarian anarchy. Close the gates, shoot the poorz, man the battle stations!
We must shut off ALL spending!
To do what? No one is actually serious about cutting spending.
In fact, it's almost as if the unfunded liabilities gang wants to speed up the process of collapse because it fits their agenda of a dire spiral into world-wide chaos and rise of evil governments, which are to be defeated by a biblical savior.

There is a desire on the part of some to see financial collapse as it justifies their world view, political aims, and religious beliefs which dwarfs the occasional leftist grumble about hopes for a recession by several orders of magnitude.
It is pure apocalyptic paranoia.

A currency-issuing nation cannot have insolvency unless its significant debt is in another currency. See Argentina for examples.
There is no collapse of the US Dollar unless idiots in DC commit the monumental error of deliberately defaulting on our debt obligations.

Unfunded liabilities are simply an accounting entry that tries to forecast what our future monetary obligations are in certain categories - TRANSLATION: social security, healthcare, infrastructure, education.
Does the military get slammed with 20, 40 or 75 year unfunded liabilities? What about Congress? Nope, only the US Post Office so far! They're stuck paying for benefits 75 years into the future, for postal employees who aren't even BORN YET.

And I will make a wager here: Not ONE PENNY of the USPS 5 billion dollar annual ransom being paid will EVER get spent on benefits for future US Post Office employees. That money is in a lockbox alright, but that lockbox WILL BE PICKED and broken open, and the money will be spent TODAY, in this generation, just like the Social Security Trust Fund was raided before.

And that is one reason I think unfunded liabilities are BS.
No amount of money we put into a lockbox will EVER go to paying down debt. It will be raided, and in future it will most likely be raided by the private sector if Trump gets his way.

Consider the folly of taking a trillion dollars that could be being productive today and literally locking it up.
Does that help those in the future?
All it does is increase the likelihood of unemployment today due to a poor economy, if we assume that money could otherwise have been used to buy goods and services.
Money changes hands between the living. Money today is used for people today. Money in the future will go to people in the future. No tax today can be saved up by the government and spent 20, 40 or 75 years from now.
Nobody 75 years from now will give a damn what it was locked up for, and that money will be raided.

The REAL "unfunded liability" for this and all generations is the capital development of our nation. Our real "un-produced" liability is the real goods and services necessary to meet the real needs of our people.

State-of-the-art public infrastructure, roads, transportation systems, hospitals, schools, training facilities, research laboratories, continual improvement of our agriculture, food production, and the quality and nutritional value of our nation's food supply, investments in cleaner and sustainable energy sources that lower energy costs for business and consumers.

The nation will need doctors, technicians, engineers, tradesmen, researchers, there is a screaming need for a highly skilled and capable workforce, but screeching about unfunded liabilities is an excuse to skip out on investing in that, and kicking the can down the road.

There is no such thing as an unfunded liability for a currency-issuing nation.
But this toxic myth is keeping us from investing in the very things our nation needs to have a robust economy today and a prosperous future that provides for the needs of our people.

Again, no matter how many trillions you put in that lockbox, I will bet you a cool trillion that NOT ONE DIME of it will ever be used to pay down those liabilities.

_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#314210 - 08/26/19 12:15 AM Re: Good bye? [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9318
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Jesus, Jeffery! I do believe that rant has earned you the title of Eyetallion Stallion!

_________________________
An entrepreneur sees problems as the seeds of opportunity.

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#314211 - 08/26/19 12:20 AM Re: Good bye? [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14197
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Jesus, Jeffery! I do believe that rant has earned you the title of Eyetallion Stallion!



To be fair I've been making this same argument for years.
I argued it with someone on FB two years ago.
I seriously doubt that ANY money sequestered for unfunded liabilities reasons will ever go toward paying those liabilities. Human skullduggery and greed will never allow it.
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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